Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hominid4 · 04-08-2007, 09:04 AM

Hi. I was debating with a "church going" friend and I had quoted some Old Testament Mosaic laws asking why he didn't live by those and he said, "That's the Old Testament, we don't go by that". He continued to mention a few verses from the New Testament of Jesus speaking of the Mosaic laws as being fulfilled and no longer needed.

Is there an argumentative response I, a nonbeliever, could use against his response regarding Mosaic law? It seems to me an easy cop out for him to just say "That's the Old Testament" and leave it at that. Is there any verses or such in the New Testament saying that the Mosaic law should be continued to be used?

Thanks!

Jayrok · 04-08-2007, 10:35 AM

The fact that the Jerusalem Apostles continued to require observance of the Mosaic laws and dietary restrictions many years after Jesus' death, despite allegedly being with him and learning from him every day, should cause pause for anyone who believes Jesus abolished the laws. In addition, the disciples also had the Holy Spirit within them to guide them and remind them of what Jesus taught. For them to keep observing those laws and even trying to make gentile converts do the same is striking in my opinion.

If Jesus did abolish the laws (as Paul claimed), how could these Apostles resist the Holy Spirit by continuing to observe the Mosaic laws? How can it be that Paul, the apostle that never walked with Jesus, is the only Apostle that taught the laws were superseded?

Secondly, christians claim Jesus ushered in the new covenant, making the old written covenant obsolete, or fulfilled. They get this from Jeremiah 31 where God says he will write his laws in their minds and on their hearts (verse 33).

Where does it say the "new covenant" will abolish God's laws? It says he will write his laws in their minds and on their hearts. So they won't need any written laws parading around, but his laws will be instilled into their hearts. What are those laws? They include obstaining from unclean foods and observing God's sabbath. Neither of which christians obey.

The NT has Jesus say it isn't what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but what comes out (Mark 7).

If Jesus is God's word, come in the flesh, why would God change his word from stay away from unclean foods like shellfish to all foods are now clean? Why would God change his word from "punishment for adultery is stoning" to "He who is without sin cast the first stone at this woman" (John 8). How could this not confuse the Jewish leadership?

Where in Jeremiah 31 does God say his laws will no longer be in effect during the new covenant? On the contrary, not only do they seem to still be in effect, they are permanently instilled in the mind and the heart.

Malachi151 · 04-08-2007, 12:05 PM

The Gospels are contradictory on the issue. Some say yes, some say no, and Matthew says both yes and no.

Quote:

Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Also, if he thinks that the OT laws are abolished by Jesus, then ask if he supports the posting of the 10 Commandments, and why.

Cege · 04-08-2007, 12:40 PM

I don't have answers for you, but I will add that Jesus, according to the gospels, held an even stricter view of some of the OT Law application in some areas.

While he wasn't opposed to healing on the Sabbath, or picking grainheads to eat while walking through a field on the Sabbath, Jesus said that even 'lusting in your heart' is a sin equal to adultery. Jesus said that although Moses allowed for divorce, if any man who divorces a wife except for infidelity causes both husband and wife to commit adultery (an offense deserving of death by stoning) if either of them remarry.

Jesus also said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matt 5:17-20 (NIV)

I have questions, too, about the law issue, since there seems to me to be contradiction between what Jesus is quoted as saying and what Paul wrote in the epistles.

hominid4 · 04-08-2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks a bunch for the replies, very helpful. I mentioned about the Ten Commandments and he said that they are written in "our" hearts and will always be with "us" so therefore that doesn't count.

Thanks again!

Cege · 04-08-2007, 05:40 PM

hominid, I'm curious as to how many of the Ten Commandments he can remember, written on his heart so they are always with him.

I generally find that fellow Christians can't name more than 2 or 3 of the 10.

I'm afraid that most Christians don't give much thought to the reasons that Mosaic law is no longer applied to either Christians or Reformed Jews.

Christians seem to want to apply Mosaic law to justify rejecting homosexuals and applying for divorce, for example, but not to keeping the Sabbath (punishable by death for breaking, and one of the Big 10, to boot!)

John Kesler · 04-08-2007, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hominid4

Hi. I was debating with a "church going" friend and I had quoted some Old Testament Mosaic laws asking why he didn't live by those and he said, "That's the Old Testament, we don't go by that".

In this post I discussed this issue when it came up before.

hominid4 · 04-08-2007, 09:57 PM

Thanks for the replies, been giving me ideas of what and where to look, been searching for a blantant NT verse that says the Old law should remain. I found the below, does "until heaven and earth disappear" mean that Old law should always be? Or does "until everything is accomplished" spoil that because Jesus said he "accomplished" them?

Matthew 5:18 (NIV)

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Cege · 04-09-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Or does "until everything is accomplished" spoil that because Jesus said he "accomplished" them?

In context, it reads that the disappearance of heaven and earth is necessary to indicate when everything has been "accomplished".

An apologist can argue for the sacrifice of Jesus having been the 'accomplishment of everything', but heaven and earth have yet to disappear and be replaced by the new heaven and the new earth that the NT promises to believers.

Paul wrote that he was not free from God's law but was under Christ's law. (1 Cor 9:21) so there seems to be an adoption of either a new set or a culled set of OT Law for believers. That begs the question, what is Christ's law and what parts of God's/Moses' law are included and excluded?

Malachi151 · 04-09-2007, 08:05 AM

Basically, Matthew was a more Jewish oriented work, thus that writer casts Jesus as supporting the old laws. Mark was an anti-Jewish work, that casts Jesus as saying the old laws are nonsense. Interestingly, in Matthew, the parts that Matthew adds support the old laws, but in the parts the writer coped from Mark it says is opposed to the old laws, so its pretty amusing.

04-08-2007, 09:04 AM	#1
hominid4 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 6	Mosaic Law debate question? Hi. I was debating with a "church going" friend and I had quoted some Old Testament Mosaic laws asking why he didn't live by those and he said, "That's the Old Testament, we don't go by that". He continued to mention a few verses from the New Testament of Jesus speaking of the Mosaic laws as being fulfilled and no longer needed. Is there an argumentative response I, a nonbeliever, could use against his response regarding Mosaic law? It seems to me an easy cop out for him to just say "That's the Old Testament" and leave it at that. Is there any verses or such in the New Testament saying that the Mosaic law should be continued to be used? Thanks!

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04-08-2007, 10:35 AM	#2
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	The fact that the Jerusalem Apostles continued to require observance of the Mosaic laws and dietary restrictions many years after Jesus' death, despite allegedly being with him and learning from him every day, should cause pause for anyone who believes Jesus abolished the laws. In addition, the disciples also had the Holy Spirit within them to guide them and remind them of what Jesus taught. For them to keep observing those laws and even trying to make gentile converts do the same is striking in my opinion. If Jesus did abolish the laws (as Paul claimed), how could these Apostles resist the Holy Spirit by continuing to observe the Mosaic laws? How can it be that Paul, the apostle that never walked with Jesus, is the only Apostle that taught the laws were superseded? Secondly, christians claim Jesus ushered in the new covenant, making the old written covenant obsolete, or fulfilled. They get this from Jeremiah 31 where God says he will write his laws in their minds and on their hearts (verse 33). Where does it say the "new covenant" will abolish God's laws? It says he will write his laws in their minds and on their hearts. So they won't need any written laws parading around, but his laws will be instilled into their hearts. What are those laws? They include obstaining from unclean foods and observing God's sabbath. Neither of which christians obey. The NT has Jesus say it isn't what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, but what comes out (Mark 7). If Jesus is God's word, come in the flesh, why would God change his word from stay away from unclean foods like shellfish to all foods are now clean? Why would God change his word from "punishment for adultery is stoning" to "He who is without sin cast the first stone at this woman" (John 8). How could this not confuse the Jewish leadership? Where in Jeremiah 31 does God say his laws will no longer be in effect during the new covenant? On the contrary, not only do they seem to still be in effect, they are permanently instilled in the mind and the heart.

04-08-2007, 12:40 PM	#4
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	I don't have answers for you, but I will add that Jesus, according to the gospels, held an even stricter view of some of the OT Law application in some areas. While he wasn't opposed to healing on the Sabbath, or picking grainheads to eat while walking through a field on the Sabbath, Jesus said that even 'lusting in your heart' is a sin equal to adultery. Jesus said that although Moses allowed for divorce, if any man who divorces a wife except for infidelity causes both husband and wife to commit adultery (an offense deserving of death by stoning) if either of them remarry. Jesus also said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matt 5:17-20 (NIV) I have questions, too, about the law issue, since there seems to me to be contradiction between what Jesus is quoted as saying and what Paul wrote in the epistles.

04-08-2007, 04:55 PM	#5
hominid4 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 6	Thanks a bunch for the replies, very helpful. I mentioned about the Ten Commandments and he said that they are written in "our" hearts and will always be with "us" so therefore that doesn't count. Thanks again!

04-08-2007, 05:40 PM	#6
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	hominid, I'm curious as to how many of the Ten Commandments he can remember, written on his heart so they are always with him. I generally find that fellow Christians can't name more than 2 or 3 of the 10. I'm afraid that most Christians don't give much thought to the reasons that Mosaic law is no longer applied to either Christians or Reformed Jews. Christians seem to want to apply Mosaic law to justify rejecting homosexuals and applying for divorce, for example, but not to keeping the Sabbath (punishable by death for breaking, and one of the Big 10, to boot!)

04-08-2007, 09:57 PM	#8
hominid4 Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 6	Thanks for the replies, been giving me ideas of what and where to look, been searching for a blantant NT verse that says the Old law should remain. I found the below, does "until heaven and earth disappear" mean that Old law should always be? Or does "until everything is accomplished" spoil that because Jesus said he "accomplished" them? Matthew 5:18 (NIV) 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

04-09-2007, 08:05 AM	#10
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Basically, Matthew was a more Jewish oriented work, thus that writer casts Jesus as supporting the old laws. Mark was an anti-Jewish work, that casts Jesus as saying the old laws are nonsense. Interestingly, in Matthew, the parts that Matthew adds support the old laws, but in the parts the writer coped from Mark it says is opposed to the old laws, so its pretty amusing.

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