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Old 10-12-2007, 04:07 PM   #21
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Clouseau: One option is to take the creation stories and the Cain and Abel story as of limited literal meaning, Adam and Eve being notional first people 'created' after the literal creation. However, one runs into difficulties with the talking snake, sin entering the world through a fruit, Cain marrying and enormous longevities, as well as the one posed in the OP. Scholarship takes Ge 1-11 as allegory, being adaptations of existing story myths, with only traces of historicity. The true chronicle is taken to begin with Abram, with possible traces of myth that soon disappear.
Except that, this poses an even more serious problem in the New Testament, since Jesus does not die "allegorically" for the sin of Adam; he actually (allegedly) dies for the sin of Adam. If that's the case, then Jesus literally died for an allegory or myth.
One does not need to source sin to a particular historic named individual; the pervading presence of sin in the world is reckoned as evidence enough. Adam represents all men, Eve, all women- each of us may be said to have our own Fall, loss of innocence and the compromised conscience that results. As Jesus said, his message is not for those who think they have not sinned.
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Old 10-12-2007, 04:47 PM   #22
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Modern scholars generally believe that the story of Cain and Abel is an etiological tale describing the origins of the Kenites, the eponymous ancestor of whom was Cain. The intent of the story was likely to explain why the Kenites were so fierce -- they were, after all, descended from a murderer. Note also the sevenfold vengeance in Gen 4:15, which is exceptional to the usual talionic (a life for a life) system of retributive justice.

The story was very likely inserted into the Genesis narrative. This and other antediluvian etiologies are clearly out of place because they purport to explain contemporary reality by identifying ancestral figures known for certain behaviors or responsible for certain innovations. Yaval, in Gen 4:20, "was the father of all who dwell in tents and [have] cattle." Yuval (Gen 4:21) was the first musician. Tubal-cain (Gen 4:22) was the founder of metalworking. It makes little sense to explain that musicians can trace their art back to Yuval if at some point after Yuval all humans, aside from Noah and his family, were wiped out in a flood.

Incidentally, the "mark" of Cain is probably not a mark at all. In context, the Hebrew word 'ot in Gen 4:15 is better translated as "promise" and refers to YHWH's approval of Cain's sevenfold vengeance. A similar usage can be found in Exod 3:12, where the 'ot apparently refers to a promise that Moses would bring the Israelites to serve YHWH at Sinai.

As the OP points out, the context of the Cain pericope clearly presumes that there were other men around, who might kill Cain, and other women, from whom Cain took his wife (Gen 4:17).

The contrast between ancient and modern understandings of this and other stories from the Hebrew Bible is described in an outstanding recent book by James Kugel, How to Read the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk) (see ch. 3 on Cain and Abel). Kugel there goes on to discuss other literary and historical aspects to the interpretation of the Cain pericope. If I were constrained to recommend just one book on the Hebrew Bible, this would be it.
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Old 10-12-2007, 05:27 PM   #23
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The contrast between ancient and modern understandings of this and other stories from the Hebrew Bible is described in an outstanding recent book by James Kugel, How to Read the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk) (see ch. 3 on Cain and Abel). Kugel there goes on to discuss other literary and historical aspects to the interpretation of the Cain pericope. If I were constrained to recommend just one book on the Hebrew Bible, this would be it.
I'm starting to think I need to move that book to the top of my queue. It's sitting beneath some Ehrman and reruns of Friedman at the moment...

regards,

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Old 10-12-2007, 05:38 PM   #24
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No that's not what I meant. What I meant was that Ha Adam and famil were the creations of this particlar god. Other gods created other groups of people. After all, gods were regional entities in those days.
The gods were indeed "regional entities," but this does not mean that each was conceived as creator of his own people. To the contrary, the god El--whose attributes were later absorbed by Yahweh--alloted humans to each of his 70 sons, the patron gods of the respective nations.

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...and as I've shown you in the verses that immediately follow, you've got more than v14 to deal with.

Thus I believe that your case for this is weak the basis of the contextual evidence alone. Show me some other indication that makes you think this is the case.
I have already mentioned one piece of evidence: verse 14 presumes the presence of other people who might kill Cain. Another consideration is that verses 13-15 intrude on the narrative by breaking the connection between verse 12, in which Yahweh condemns Cain to a life of wandering, and verse 16, which says that Cain left Yahweh's presence and settled in the "land of Nod," i.e. "the land of wandering."


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Genesis 4:10-12, 16
And Yahweh said, "What have you done? Listen; your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground! And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it will no longer yield to you its strength; you will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth." Then Cain went away from the presence of Yahweh, and settled in the land of Nod {wandering}, east of Eden.
Also note that the very next verse states that Cain "built a city," hardly what one would expect from one sentenced to a life of wandering, which may indicate a fusion of traditions about Cain.
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:44 AM   #25
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Modern scholars generally believe that the story of Cain and Abel is an etiological tale describing the origins of the Kenites, the eponymous ancestor of whom was Cain. The intent of the story was likely to explain why the Kenites were so fierce -- they were, after all, descended from a murderer.
What evidence is there that the Kenites were fierce- or even that they were Cain's descendants?

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Note also the sevenfold vengeance in Gen 4:15, which is exceptional to the usual talionic (a life for a life) system of retributive justice.
The use of 'seven' in the Bible generally denotes completeness and/or promise, and this remark is likely to indicate confidence in Cain's safety rather than a measure of retribution. Note Lamech's comment to his wives (witnesses), justifying his killing of just one man, on account of an attack (Ge 4:23-4).
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:51 AM   #26
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verses 13-15 intrude on the narrative by breaking the connection between verse 12, in which Yahweh condemns Cain to a life of wandering, and verse 16, which says that Cain left Yahweh's presence and settled in the "land of Nod," i.e. "the land of wandering."
Intrusion, or indication of abstract meaning of wandering? Cain settled, physically speaking, but, like Adam and Eve, he was excluded from God's presence through his unforgiven sin. The default human spiritual condition is to be both excluded from Eden and wandering in the land of Nod.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:32 AM   #27
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What evidence is there that the Kenites were fierce- or even that they were Cain's descendants?
In Hebrew, Cain = qayin = QYN. The gentilic adds a yod: Kenite = qeyini = QYNY (see e.g. Gen 15:19). For example, in the Table of Nations (Gen 10) we read of the Canaanites = kenaani = KN(NY, who are ancestors of the eponymous Canaan = kenaan = KN(N, the son of Ham and grandson of Noah. Similarly, the people associated with Canaan's son Heth = chet = XT are the Hittites = chiti = XTY (Gen 15:20). Note that there are other ways to express the gentilic, such as "sons of X". For example, Ammonites = amoni are also called "children of Ammon" = bnei amon.

That the etiology in Gen 4 is explaining the fierceness of the Kenites is largely conjectural. Clearly it is etiological, establishing the characteristics of their eponymous ancestor. Geographically the Kenites are associated with the Amalekites, who were portrayed as ruthless killers and eternal enemies of Israel.

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Originally Posted by Clouseau
The use of 'seven' in the Bible generally denotes completeness and/or promise, and this remark is likely to indicate confidence in Cain's safety rather than a measure of retribution.
The promise or pledge = )T here seems to refer to the utterance of Yahweh in Gen 4:15a:
And YHWH said unto him: 'Therefore whoever kills Cain will receive sevenfold revenge.'
This apparently furnishes a divine explanation for the Kenites' vengefulness -- a retributive system which exceeds that of the talionic "life for a life," which is also divinely ordained (Exod 21:23).
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:45 AM   #28
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What evidence is there that the Kenites were fierce- or even that they were Cain's descendants?
In Hebrew, Cain = qayin = QYN. The gentilic adds a yod: Kenite = qeyini = QYNY (see e.g. Gen 15:19).
There is also archaeological evidence that suggests Kenites were smiths and one of Cain's descendants is described in the Bible as spawning a family of smiths.

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Geographically the Kenites are associated with the Amalekites, who were portrayed as ruthless killers and eternal enemies of Israel.
And, eventually, it is my understanding Amalek came to be the name of the demon in charge of atheism.
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Old 10-13-2007, 10:07 AM   #29
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n Hebrew, Cain = qayin = QYN. The gentilic adds a yod: Kenite = qeyini = QYNY (see e.g. Gen 15:19).
There is also Balaam's oracle in Numbers 24, quoted from the JPS Tanakh:

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21 He saw the Kenites and, taking up his theme, he said:
Though your abode be secure,
And your nest be set among the cliffs,
22 Yet shall Kain be consumed,
When Asshur takes you captive.
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Old 10-13-2007, 11:00 AM   #30
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What evidence is there that the Kenites were fierce- or even that they were Cain's descendants?
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In Hebrew, Cain = qayin = QYN. The gentilic adds a yod: Kenite = qeyini = QYNY (see e.g. Gen 15:19). For example, in the Table of Nations (Gen 10) we read of the Canaanites = kenaani = KN(NY, who are ancestors of the eponymous Canaan = kenaan = KN(N, the son of Ham and grandson of Noah. Similarly, the people associated with Canaan's son Heth = chet = XT are the Hittites = chiti = XTY (Gen 15:20). Note that there are other ways to express the gentilic, such as "sons of X". For example, Ammonites = amoni are also called "children of Ammon" = bnei amon.
Even if the Kenites were descended from a man named Cain, it does not mean that the man was Cain the son of Adam. There is no certainty about the origin of the Kenites, and several views have been proposed. Most scholars identify the Kenites with the Midianites or a sept thereof.

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That the etiology in Gen 4 is explaining the fierceness of the Kenites is largely conjectural. Clearly it is etiological, establishing the characteristics of their eponymous ancestor. Geographically the Kenites are associated with the Amalekites, who were portrayed as ruthless killers and eternal enemies of Israel.
'Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.' 1 Sa 15:5-6 NIV

A motive to justify Kenite fierceness does not seem to have been necessary. In any case, Cain was not vengeful in the account; it was the deity who might have been thought to have been vengeful, but, as already explained, even that does not seem to be true.
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