Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 05-17-2009, 09:18 AM

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

aa5874 · 05-17-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

There seems to have been two persons called John according to Eusebius one an apostle and the other a presbyter, and Papias was a hearer of the presbyter John not the apostle John.

But this is Eusebius on Papias in Church History 3.39.2 -7

Quote:

1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenæus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: “These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him.” These are the words of Irenæus.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

3. He says: But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and springing from the truth itself.

4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders— what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice.

5. It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.

6. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John

7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.

Now, there is no evidence external of apologetic sources that Jesus did exist and likewise no credible evidence for an apostle called John. So it is hardly likely that Papias, if he did exist, could have heard John the apostle.

Doug Shaver · 05-18-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Was Papias a hearer of John?

It depends on which John you're asking about. He apparently had some conversations with somebody known by that name, but I'm sure it wasn't the same John as the one mentioned in the New Testament.

I am, of course, just for the sake of discussion assuming a few things about the quotations of Papias that have survived in the patristic literature.

Ben C Smith · 05-18-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Was Papias a hearer of John?

It depends on which John you're asking about. He apparently had some conversations with somebody known by that name, but I'm sure it wasn't the same John as the one mentioned in the New Testament.

I am pretty sure it was not John of Zebedee, but it may have been the elder mentioned in the Johannine epistles (which are part of the NT).

Also, it may be assuming too much to press personal conversation here. Papias affirms that such and such is what John was saying, and the present tense used of this John and Aristion (contrasted with the past tense used of Andrew, Peter, the other John, and the rest) implies that this John was saying those things contemporaneously with Papias, but Papias does not ever actually say in the extant fragments that he met John and conversed with him; he could just be repeating what others are saying that John was saying.

Ben.

05-17-2009, 09:18 AM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Was Papias a hearer of John? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

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