Steven Carr

Mark 4:11 says that the secret of the kingdom of God has been given to the disciples. What was this secret? When was it given to the disciples, who seem totally ignorant of who Jesus was (Mark 4:41)?

In Mark 6:7-13 till 29-30 the disciples are sent out to preach and teach.

As the disciples did not know Jesus was the Messiah until Mark 8:30, that must have been interesing!

Peter - Repent of your sins, and follow Jesus of Nazareth.

Bystander in the crowd - Is he the Messiah who will rid us of the cursed Roman occupation?

Peter - I never thought to ask him. I don't know. I'll ask him when I see him again, and get back to you.

What could the disciples have preached and taught in Mark 6 that had anything to do with the secret of the kingdom of God? Why send people out to teach without explaining that you are the Messiah?

They were also given power over evil spirits, but it is not until Mark 9:29 that Jesus explains that they have to pray first before driving out a demon. How did the disciples drive out demons before that, when Jesus had neglected to give them such basic instruction as to pray first?

Mark 7:14 gives some instruction about the Law which a simpleton could grasp, yet Jesus tells the disciples in verse 18 that they are without understanding. These are the preacher-teachers who had been given the secret of the kingdom of God.

Despite not being able to understand, and not knowing, elementary instruction about the Law, they had already by chapter 3 had liberal practices on fasting and the Sabbath,and the whole teaching of chapter 7 (which the disciples did not understand) was caused by a question about the practices of those same disciples!

Don't forget that these preacher-teachers , who had been given the secret of the Kingdom of God in 4:11, had had their hearts hardened in 6:52, so that they did not understand even such a blatant miracle as walking on water.

Why give the disciples the secret of the kingdom of God and then harden their hearts so that they don't understand it?

What WAS the secret of the kingdom of God that the disicples had been given?

Amaleq13

There seem to be two connected "secrets" and one has an additional "secret" aspect. The one the Disciples can teach before knowing the 2nd (i.e. Jesus = Messiah) is that the Kingdom of God is coming. The "secondary" aspect of the messianic secret is the "getting killed and getting raised" angle that Peter is portrayed as failing to understand or refusing to accept.

"The Kingdom of God is coming and you can avoid the associated Judgment if you repent and change your behavior!"

Steven Carr

So Jesus sent them to preach that no belief in Jesus as Saviour is necessary?

Toto

This makes some sense (well not actually logical sense) if the earliest group that evolved into Christians were just a sect of Jews preaching repentence. The idea of a Savior dying for our redemption was grafted onto this sect after some traumatic event - possibly the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. Little bits of the earlier history were saved as gospel stories, then woven into a tale about the mythical savior turned human.

Just speculation. I don't see how this history can ever be recovered.

Amaleq13

Not exactly. I'm suggesting Jesus sent them to preach the coming of the Kingdom of God (period). They were apparently all performing healings so the only indication folks would have that Jesus was special was if they attributed the teachings to him. There doesn't seem to be any reason to assume this gospel included anything explicitly taught about the Messiah. The prophets were teaching that the Kingdom of God was coming and performing healings to confirm his authority and probably identifying Jesus as the originator of this gospel. That's it.

Hence Jesus' question to the boys about what folks were saying about him:

"And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, to the villages of Cesarea Philippi, and in the way he was questioning his disciples, saying to them, `Who do men say me to be?' (Mark 8:27, YLT)

Note that the answer he gets does not include "the Messiah":

"And they answered, `John the Baptist, and others Elijah, but others one of the prophets.'"(8:28, YLT)

That seems consistent with the idea that he was publicly only identified as the originator of the prophetic message regarding the Kingdom.

The public got "Kingdom of God Is Coming!"

The Disciples got "Jesus is the Messiah"

Nobody got "The Messiah will be killed and raised" until after the fact.

Steven Carr

And presumably Jesus would not have deprived of them of salvation, so would have instructed his disciples to preach what was necessary for salvation - which apparently does not include belief in Jesus as the Messiah.

You mean they would not have mentioned their leader?

'probably'? And nobody ever thought to ask Jesus who he was?

Jesus obviously wanted to keep his message of salvation a secret.....


When? They did NOT know Jesus was the Messiah. See the opening post. They were given the secret of the Kingdom of God, yet did not know Jesus was the Messiah.

In fact, they did not have the faintest idea why they were doing what they were doing (eg not washing)

They were without understanding. How could they break the Law and not bother to ask Jesus why he was telling them to do that?

Amaleq13

I agree as far as Mark's story is concerned. That Jesus is the Messiah is supposed to be a secret. Apparently it was to remain that way until the Big Entrance in Jerusalem.

They were apparently all performing healings so the only indication folks would have that Jesus was special was if they attributed the teachings to him.

As I understand it, the healings were intended to establish the divine authority behind their gospel. Jesus doesn't tell them to preach the gospel and be sure to tell them where you got it. He just tells them to preach and be prepared to get their asses kicked. This wasn't "Jesus' gospel of the coming Kingdom of God", it was simply "the gospel of the coming Kingdom of God". So, to directly answer your question, they would not have necessarily mentioned Jesus. If they had, the Disciples would have kept the secret and only identified him as their leader though they may have portrayed him as having divinely inspired wisdom.

Salvation from the Judgment, according to the gospel of the Kingdom of God, could only be obtained by repenting one's sins and changing one's behavior (e.g. love thy neighbor, etc.).

Belief "in Jesus" didn't become a requirement for salvation until after the resurrection.

Based on his answer, Peter had apparently figured it out:

"And he saith to them, `And ye -- who do ye say me to be?' and Peter answering saith to him, `Thou art the Christ.'" (8:29, YLT)

Jesus immediately tells him to keep it to himself.

Even Rock Head {trademark infringement! Doctor X will sue!} managed to figure it out after witnessing Jesus multiple food, etc. "All" the Disciples could do, apparently, was heal people.

I agree that Mark's portrayal of the stupidity of the Disciples if often too much to believe. As the esteemed Doctor X has pointed out, it is hard to tell where the polemic begins and where, if at all, historical realities are involved.

Vorkosigan

Setve, what would you say accounts for the basically incredible potrayal of the disciples in Mark?

rlogan

That is indeed an interesting question. Does it not bear upon the struggle for supremacy in the movement?

Infidelettante

If I may rlogan, this is a subject I have never been able to understand clearly. Namely, that the disciples seemed to have no idea whatsoever as to who Jesus was. The disciples seemed to come to some understanding of Jesus' teaching only after the resurrection when he appeared to them.

I think the story was altered to bring it in line with the experience of Paul. The disciples inability to understand Jesus untill after he appears in a vision gives credence to Pauls claim. Is that what you mean?

JT