Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 05-12-2013, 10:42 AM

Was at Barnes and Noble reading the article http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...80%98-yisrael/ arguing that the discovery of a Jewish amulet near the city of Carnuntum that “marks an early pinnacle of this monotheistic interpretation of the Shema‘ Yisrael in Deuteronomy 6:4. Owing to the ambiguities of the Hebrew language there are multiple ways of translating the Shema:

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God! YHWH is One!"

and,

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God – YHWH alone."

Many commentaries have been written about the subtle differences between the translations. There is an emphasis on the oneness of God and on the sole worship of God by Israel. There are other translations, though most retain one or the other emphases. The amulet would argue for the latter - i.e. that the saying accepted the existence of many gods but that Israel was only to worship Yahweh alone. Very impotant discovery. Off to a mother's day brunch ...

Toto · 05-12-2013, 10:48 AM

Jewish monotheism dates to the third century CE?

Quote:

When did Deuteronomy’s Shema‘ Yisrael become a monotheistic statement? When did Jews begin to recognize their deity as the only deity existing in the universe? In the May/June 2013 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Armin Lange and Esther Eshel discuss the discovery of a Jewish amulet near the city of Carnuntum that “marks an early pinnacle of this monotheistic interpretation of the Shema‘ Yisrael in Deuteronomy 6:4.”

The Jewish amulet was discovered in a third-century C.E. child’s grave near the Roman frontier city Carnuntum (close to modern Halbturn, Austria). The amulet is formed out of a silver capsule and small gold leaf, inscribed with a Hebrew Shema‘ Yisrael written in Greek letters. Lange and Eshel state that “the Jewish amulet reads the last clause of the Shema‘ Yisrael as ΑΔΩΝ Α ‘the Lord is 1.’ That is, it replaces the Hebrew word אחד, which meant originally ‘alone,’ with ‘one’ (a Greek A). The letter in ancient Greek represents the numeral 1.”

stephan huller · 05-12-2013, 01:47 PM

I don't know if it is 3rd century per se but my overall impression is that true monotheism as we know it only appears explicit after the reconstitution of the religion after the destruction of the temple. You get perhaps a glimpse of this in the post-destruction slighting of the Sadducees in the rabbinic literature equating them with heretics and Epicureans and the like. But IMO there is this vulgar attempt within Judaism, Samaritanism and Christianity to strip reference to 'powers' of God and make it appear as there was this religion of the 'one god' from the very beginning.

I don't know how to reference this manifestation so I use the term Sabellianism. Yes Sabellianism is saying that three powers are one but the basic pattern is still the same (= going toward one). It is worth noting that Irenaeus is connected to the movement and that we can imagine that the same pattern - i.e. the pathway to 'one god' is going on simultaneously in Jewish, Samaritan and Christian communities. I can't fathom how this occurred other than to associate it with the vulgar rabble seizing control of the religion in the aftermath of the back to back holocausts in Palestine. Jewish mysticism (kabbalah is one of the last links to the past even if it is corrupt).

PhilosopherJay · 05-12-2013, 02:34 PM

Hi stephen huller and Toto,

I would imagine that a monotheistic ideology could only reflect real world events. It would have made sense at certain periods of time, for example, when Cyrus the Great was ruling from 540-530 B.C.E., the period of Alexander the Great's rule from 330 to 323 and the period of Augustus Caesar's rule from 30 B.C.E. - 14 C.E. At other times, it can only exist as a detached strange symbol among the most backwards, pagan, rural dwellers who have no idea of the world and its history.

It flourishes again in the time of the Emperor Constantine from perhaps 321 to 337.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-12-2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

IMO there is this vulgar attempt within Judaism, Samaritanism and Christianity to strip reference to 'powers' of God and make it appear as there was this religion of the 'one god' from the very beginning.

Yes. Of course.

Sounds like you haven’t discovered Mark S. Smith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_S._Smith
http://hebrewjudaic.as.nyu.edu/object/marksmith.html

Sounds like you haven’t read The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_History_of_God
The Early History of God (or via: amazon.co.uk)
http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=1yM3AuBh4AsC

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-12-2013, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I don't know how to reference this manifestation so I use the term Sabellianism. Yes Sabellianism is saying that three powers are one but the basic pattern is still the same (= going toward one).

Where are you getting your “three” powers?

Here’s my three:

Bull El - the "most high" father god.

Baal Hadad – the rider of the clouds who conquered prince Yam.

Yahweh – the war god who discovered the tribe of Jacob as they wandered through the desert.

- Of course over time they all got blended together.

I think one could also argue that Yahweh and Baal Hadad were always considered the same god – at least in some circles.

And I think one could also argue that El and Baal Hadad conflated independently of Yahweh. (Isaiah 14:14)

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-12-2013, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I can't fathom how this occurred other than to associate it with the vulgar rabble seizing control of the religion in the aftermath of the back to back holocausts in Palestine. Jewish mysticism (kabbalah is one of the last links to the past even if it is corrupt).

I bet that the relationship between “Baal Hadad” and “Bull El” eventually – somehow evolved into the relationship between “Jesus Christ” and “God the Father”.

I think that the influence was probably subtle and unconscious.

When Yahweh finally assimilated El it left a vacancy in earlier stories. They needed a new LORD.

- And of course there were many other contributing factors that may have been much more dominate.

- We could also travel further back in time and say that it came from Marduk and Enki.

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-12-2013, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Jewish monotheism dates to the third century CE?

Who were those one-hit-wonders called the Masoretes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretes

And when did they record their big hit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text

Aren’t the Masoretes the ones who tweaked Deuteronomy 32:8 and 32:43?

If so, then doesn’t that push Jewish polytheism out to around the 7th century CE?

Bingo the Clown-O · 05-18-2013, 06:25 AM

Gosh. What happened here Stephan? It looks like I killed your thread.

Sorry.

Apparently you have lost your zeal for discussing this fascinating issue.

Was it something I said?

Am I being incoherent again? :frown:

Why am I always misunderstood? :banghead:

Is my language really that fucked up?

Sometimes I feel like Dr. Lester in “Being John Malkovich.”

stephan huller · 05-18-2013, 06:54 AM

No, I appreciate your feedback. I've just been really busy with other things. I think it is a fascinating question. I just have my mind in other places right now. There's only so much time that one can devote to unproductive things like the origin of religion. In fact I try so hard at it with my endless musings that one might even say I exhibit Herculean unproductiveness if that is possible.

05-12-2013, 10:42 AM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Armin Lange and Esther Eshel's New Article on the Shema Was at Barnes and Noble reading the article http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...80%98-yisrael/ arguing that the discovery of a Jewish amulet near the city of Carnuntum that “marks an early pinnacle of this monotheistic interpretation of the Shema‘ Yisrael in Deuteronomy 6:4. Owing to the ambiguities of the Hebrew language there are multiple ways of translating the Shema: "Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God! YHWH is One!" and, "Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God – YHWH alone." Many commentaries have been written about the subtle differences between the translations. There is an emphasis on the oneness of God and on the sole worship of God by Israel. There are other translations, though most retain one or the other emphases. The amulet would argue for the latter - i.e. that the saying accepted the existence of many gods but that Israel was only to worship Yahweh alone. Very impotant discovery. Off to a mother's day brunch ...

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05-12-2013, 01:47 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't know if it is 3rd century per se but my overall impression is that true monotheism as we know it only appears explicit after the reconstitution of the religion after the destruction of the temple. You get perhaps a glimpse of this in the post-destruction slighting of the Sadducees in the rabbinic literature equating them with heretics and Epicureans and the like. But IMO there is this vulgar attempt within Judaism, Samaritanism and Christianity to strip reference to 'powers' of God and make it appear as there was this religion of the 'one god' from the very beginning. I don't know how to reference this manifestation so I use the term Sabellianism. Yes Sabellianism is saying that three powers are one but the basic pattern is still the same (= going toward one). It is worth noting that Irenaeus is connected to the movement and that we can imagine that the same pattern - i.e. the pathway to 'one god' is going on simultaneously in Jewish, Samaritan and Christian communities. I can't fathom how this occurred other than to associate it with the vulgar rabble seizing control of the religion in the aftermath of the back to back holocausts in Palestine. Jewish mysticism (kabbalah is one of the last links to the past even if it is corrupt).

05-12-2013, 02:34 PM	#4
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	Hi stephen huller and Toto, I would imagine that a monotheistic ideology could only reflect real world events. It would have made sense at certain periods of time, for example, when Cyrus the Great was ruling from 540-530 B.C.E., the period of Alexander the Great's rule from 330 to 323 and the period of Augustus Caesar's rule from 30 B.C.E. - 14 C.E. At other times, it can only exist as a detached strange symbol among the most backwards, pagan, rural dwellers who have no idea of the world and its history. It flourishes again in the time of the Emperor Constantine from perhaps 321 to 337. Warmly, Jay Raskin

05-18-2013, 06:25 AM	#9
Bingo the Clown-O Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: middle east Posts: 310	Gosh. What happened here Stephan? It looks like I killed your thread. Sorry. Apparently you have lost your zeal for discussing this fascinating issue. Was it something I said? Am I being incoherent again? :frown: Why am I always misunderstood? :banghead: Is my language really that fucked up? Sometimes I feel like Dr. Lester in “Being John Malkovich.”

05-18-2013, 06:54 AM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	No, I appreciate your feedback. I've just been really busy with other things. I think it is a fascinating question. I just have my mind in other places right now. There's only so much time that one can devote to unproductive things like the origin of religion. In fact I try so hard at it with my endless musings that one might even say I exhibit Herculean unproductiveness if that is possible.

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