Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 09-26-2011, 04:21 PM

But isn't it an already accepted notion that the authors of the Greek new testament canonical books simply data mined the Greek LXX for sayings to be put into the new testament mouth of Jesus and the apostles? This common curse of Jesus is bound to have parallels to other common curses which proliferate the Greek LXX.

According to this source ...

Quote:

... several scholars presume that this text is taken from the Gospel of Matthew or
from the synoptic gospels [38]

[38]Massaux, Influence, 23–27; Köhler, Rezeption, 62–64; Knoch, Eigenart und
Bedeutung, 70–72, who refers to the Gospels of both Matthew and Luke; Lindemann,
Clemensbriefe, 137. Cf. Matthew 18:6; 26:24; Mark 9:42; 14:21; Luke 17:2; 22:22.

stephan huller · 09-26-2011, 06:37 PM

It is impossible that two people - even two Clements - could have independently constructed the same chain of sayings. Either, as Andrew notes, Clement of A is quoting Clement of R OR they are drawing from the same non-canonical gospel. I haven't double checked his use of Clement of R but my impression was that he usually introduces the material with some preamble (from memory - 'the apostle Clement,' 'the Epistle of the Romans to the Corinthians,' etc.). It all hinges on the citation of Isaiah 52:5. Was there a variant text of Isaiah used by Paul and Clement or is Clement making two back to back references to 'scriptural sources' without identifying them? I find this especially unusual for Clement.

andrewcriddle · 09-27-2011, 12:06 PM

There is another significant synotic type parallel between Clement of Rome and Clement of Alexandria.

Clement to the Corinthians

Quote:

being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: “Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you.

stromateis 2

Quote:

"Be merciful," says the Lord, "that you may receive mercy; forgive, that you may be forgiven. As ye do, so shall it be done to you; as ye give, so shall it be given to you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye show kindness, so shall kindness be shown to you: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Again most scholars think C of A is quoting C of R.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 09-27-2011, 01:45 PM

I am actually more intrigued by the previous sentence in the passage from Clement of Rome:

Quote:

for the Holy Spirit saith, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness” [Jer. ix. 23, 24; 1 Cor. i. 31; 2 Cor. x. 17.] being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: “Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you.” [Matt. vi. 12–15, Matt. vii. 2; Luke vi. 36–38]. By this precept and by these rules let us establish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words.

One of those 'where'd that come from' citations back to back with another 'where'd that come from' citation.

stephan huller · 09-27-2011, 02:05 PM

I guess I just wonder in the second example brought forward by Andrew, why Clement of Alexandria would cite Clement of Rome at the juncture he does in the Stromata. It is apparent he is talking about how benevolent the Law given to Moses is. Not only does it provide rules for how to deal with slaves (male or female) Clement of A goes on to say.

Quote:

What more. The Lord enjoins to ease and raise up the beasts of enemies when labouring beneath their burdens; remotely teaching us not to indulge in joy at our neighbour's ills, or exult over our enemies; in order to teach those who are trained in these things to pray for their enemies. For He does not allow us either to grieve at our neighbour's good, or to reap joy at our neighbour's ill. And if you find any enemy's beast straying, you are to pass over the incentives of difference, and take it back and restore it. For oblivion of injuries is followed by goodness, and the latter by dissolution of enmity. From this we are fitted for agreement, and this conducts to felicity. And should you suppose one habitually hostile, and discover him to be unreasonably mistaken either through lust or anger, turn him to goodness

This is a familiar theme in the Stromata and he goes on to quote that passage known to Clement of R in what immediately follows:

Quote:

Does the law then which conducts to Christ appear humane and mild? And does not the same God, good, while characterized by righteousness from the beginning to the end, employ each kind suitably in order to salvation? "Be merciful," says the Lord, "that you may receive mercy; forgive, that you may be forgiven. As ye do, so shall it be done to you; as ye give, so shall it be given to you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye show kindness, so shall kindness be shown to you: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Furthermore, [the law] prohibits those, who are in servitude for their subsistence, to be branded with disgrace; and to those, who have been reduced to slavery through money borrowed, it gives a complete release in the seventh year.

I just don't see why Clement of A would be citing Clement of R given that the context is not the same. Clement of R is giving examples of how faith was present in various Patriarchs including Rahab:

Quote:

On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. For when spies were sent by Joshua, the son of Nun, to Jericho, the king of the country ascertained that they were come to spy out their land, and sent men to seize them, in order that, when taken, they might be put to death. But the hospitable Rahab receiving them, concealed them on the roof of her house under some stalks of flax. And when the men sent by the king arrived and said “There came men unto thee who are to spy out our land; bring them forth, for so the king commands,” she answered them, “The two men whom ye seek came unto me, but quickly departed again and are gone,” thus not discovering the spies to them. Then she said to the men, “I know assuredly that the Lord your God hath given you this city, for the fear and dread of you have fallen on its inhabitants. When therefore ye shall have taken it, keep ye me and the house of my father in safety.” And they said to her, “It shall be as thou hast spoken to us. As soon, therefore, as thou knowest that we are at hand, thou shall gather all thy family under thy roof, and they shall be preserved, but all that are found outside of thy dwelling shall perish.” [Josh. ii.; Heb. xi. 31] Moreover, they gave her a sign to this effect, that she should hang forth from her house a scarlet thread. And thus they made it manifest that redemption should flow through the blood of the Lord to all them that believe and hope in God. Ye see, beloved, that there was not only faith, but prophecy, in this woman.

Many Church Fathers cite Clement for this purpose (i.e. to emphasize Rahab as a 'type' of the faithful - Justin Mar., Dial. c. Tryph., n. 111; Irenæus, Adv. Hær., iv. 20) . Yet if we are to believe that Clement of A read Clement of R and ignored the context of his letter and cited only the gospel fragment:

Quote:

On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. For when spies were sent by Joshua, the son of Nun, to Jericho, the king of the country ascertained that they were come to spy out their land, and sent men to seize them, in order that, when taken, they might be put to death. But the hospitable Rahab receiving them, concealed them on the roof of her house under some stalks of flax. And when the men sent by the king arrived and said “There came men unto thee who are to spy out our land; bring them forth, for so the king commands,” she answered them, “The two men whom ye seek came unto me, but quickly departed again and are gone,” thus not discovering the spies to them. Then she said to the men, “I know assuredly that the Lord your God hath given you this city, for the fear and dread of you have fallen on its inhabitants. When therefore ye shall have taken it, keep ye me and the house of my father in safety.” And they said to her, “It shall be as thou hast spoken to us. As soon, therefore, as thou knowest that we are at hand, thou shall gather all thy family under thy roof, and they shall be preserved, but all that are found outside of thy dwelling shall perish.” [Josh. ii.; Heb. xi. 31] Moreover, they gave her a sign to this effect, that she should hang forth from her house a scarlet thread. And thus they made it manifest that redemption should flow through the blood of the Lord to all them that believe and hope in God. Ye see, beloved, that there was not only faith, but prophecy, in this woman.

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness", being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: “Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you.” By this precept and by these rules let us establish ourselves, that we walk with all humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word saith, “On whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and that trembleth at My words?”

Clement of R's point is that Christians must demonstrate 'faith and hospitality.' I guess one might argue that one of the strands of Clement of A's broader argument is that the Law taught humanity to display 'mildness' towards others nevertheless I don't see why Clement of A would need to cite Clement of R anonymously for this effect or indeed why he wouldn't have just cited from his gospel directly as most of this stuff appears there.

I am not sure the sense is exactly the same in each text. The focus of Clement of A's material is to demonstrate that Moses was superior to the Greek philosophers. The chapter begins:

Quote:

It is then clear also that all the other virtues, delineated in Moses, supplied the Greeks with the rudiments of the whole department of morals. I mean valour, and temperance, and wisdom, and justice, and endurance, and patience, and decorum, and self-restraint; and in addition to these, piety.

Clement of Rome is using the gospel to reinforce the kind of qualities leaders in the church should possess. I am not sure there would be any reason for Clement of A to use Clement of R when they aren't exactly talking about the same things.

stephan huller · 10-10-2011, 12:34 PM

I couldn't help notice this striking parallel between Clement of A and Clement of R which strangely argues AGAINST Clement of A citing directly from Clement of R:

Quote:

But if human wisdom, as it remains to understand, is the glorying in knowledge, hear the law of Scripture: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, and let not the mighty man glory in his might; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord." [Clement of Alexandria, Instructor 1.6]

And now Clement of R:

Quote:

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness”), being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake, teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: “Be ye merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you.” [to the Corinthians 13]

The latter part of the cited text from Clement of R is of course the 'measure for measure' gospel passage which most closely resembles the Diatessaron IMO but notice that the material from Jeremiah is different. A line is missing. In Clement of A it is:

Quote:

Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, and let not the mighty man glory in his might; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord.

But in Clement of R it is:

Quote:

Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness

Isn't that puzzling? It has been argued elsewhere that when Clement of A and Clement of R share close readings of variants of text known to other Fathers Clement of A is citing Clement of R. Yet if this were so here, how could Clement of A's version of Jeremiah have missed a whole line?

The Hebrew text of Jeremiah 9:23, 24 reads:

Quote:

This is what the LORD says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the LORD.

The LXX reads:

Quote:

23τάδε λέγει κύριος μὴ καυχάσθω ὁ σοφὸς ἐν τῇ σοφίᾳ αὐτοῦ καὶ μὴ καυχάσθω ὁ ἰσχυρὸς ἐν τῇ ἰσχύι αὐτοῦ καὶ μὴ καυχάσθω ὁ πλούσιος ἐν τῷ πλούτῳ αὐτοῦ 24ἀλλ' ἢ ἐν τούτῳ καυχάσθω ὁ καυχώμενος συνίειν καὶ γινώσκειν ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι κύριος ποιῶν ἔλεος καὶ κρίμα καὶ δικαιοσύνην ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ὅτι ἐν τούτοις τὸ θέλημά μου λέγει κύριος

http://books.google.com/books?id=IHG...%20LXX&f=false

It is curious though that Clement of A should be missing a whole line of this peculiar rendering of Jeremiah chapter 9. Any thoughts?

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09-26-2011, 06:37 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It is impossible that two people - even two Clements - could have independently constructed the same chain of sayings. Either, as Andrew notes, Clement of A is quoting Clement of R OR they are drawing from the same non-canonical gospel. I haven't double checked his use of Clement of R but my impression was that he usually introduces the material with some preamble (from memory - 'the apostle Clement,' 'the Epistle of the Romans to the Corinthians,' etc.). It all hinges on the citation of Isaiah 52:5. Was there a variant text of Isaiah used by Paul and Clement or is Clement making two back to back references to 'scriptural sources' without identifying them? I find this especially unusual for Clement.

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