stephan huller

Mishnah Berakhot 5:3 He who says: (in a prayer) (A) "Even to a bird's nest do your mercies extend" or (B) "May your name be remembered for the good" or (C) "We give thanks, we give thanks" — is to be silenced

Mishnah Megillah 4:9 (D) He who says: "May the good bless you." — this is the manner of sectarianism.

Jerusalem Talmud Megillah 4:10 75c He who says: "May the good bless you — this is two powers."

Babylonian Talmud Megillah 25a and Berakhot 33b GEMARA. We understand why he is silenced if he says 'We give thanks, we give thanks', because he seems to be acknowledging two Powers; also if he says, 'Be thy name mentioned for well-doing', because this implies, for the good only and and not for the bad, and we have learnt, A man must bless God for the evil as he blesses Him for the good. But what is the reason for silencing him if he says "Thy mercies extend to the bird's nest'? Two Amoraim in the West, R. Jose b. Abin and R. Jose b. Zebida, give different answers; one says it is because he creates jealousy among God's creatures, the other, because he presents the measures taken by the Holy One, blessed be He, as springing from compassion, whereas they are but decrees. A certain (reader) went down (before the Ark) in the presence of Rabbah and said, "Thou hast shown mercy to the bird's nest, show Thou pity and mercy to us'. Said Rabbah: How well this student knows how to placate his [heavenly] Master! Said Abaye to him [Rabbah]: But we have learnt, HE is SILENCED?— Rabbah too acted thus only to test [him]

Do I have to explain why we should think that 'the Marcionites' are being referred to here? Who other than Marcion emphasized 'the good God' or called his deity 'the Good'? The real question is why the rabbinic literature doesn't have any references to Catholics in their ranks; just Marcionites and heretics.

Epiphanius claims that the Luke 12:6-7 was missing in Marcion's gospel - "Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God ... Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." I am not so sure that this isn't the passage the rabbis had in mind.

mountainman

Plato, Apollonius of Tyana, etc, etc, etc

stephan huller

I'll give you Plato. There were no Jewish followers of Apollonius that's for certain. With regards to Plato though, the Marcionites were just a Platonizing messianic sect of Judaism. The point is that what is being described in the rabbinic literature is Marcionitism and not Philo although - I am certain - Marcionitism developed from the Jewish tradition of Alexandria.

mountainman

That is not for certain, since Apollonius served as one of the physician/priests associated with the Graeco-Roman Healing god Asclepius, whom Plato also recognised, and, according to this article (I have not checked the sources for this yet) there was a temple to Asclepius, near the Sheep gate in Jerusalem, at the pool of Bethesda, from the 4th century BCE, and which was renovated by Hadrian c.135 CE. Thus there in fact may have been Jewish followers -- in Jerusalem - of the god that Apollonius followed.

stephan huller

Whatever ...

show_no_mercy

Maybe they considered Catholics to be heretics? It does seem kind of strange that there isn't any reference to certain Catholic doctrines when there are references to heretics and Marcionites.

Maybe the Rabbinic writings on heretics doesn't extend beyond the early 2nd century?

stephan huller

Well, to be certain, it would have been dangerous for the Jewish writings to have attacked the Catholic Church after Constantine.

andrewcriddle

The people whose views are opposed here by the rabbis may well be Gnostic dualists. It is not clear that they are Marconites. The people involved seem to believe in two divine powers one of whom created the good things in the material world and the other the bad things. This seems more like Zoroastrianism than Marcionism.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

Andrew

Yes that's the standard view and I recognize that the Marcionites had three divinities (the good, the ugly and the bad) but it is has to be remembered that the rabbinic tradition never identifies any one of the two powers in heaven to be Satan or the devil. As such it isn't really Zoroastrian. The system here is more compatible with the role that Metatron must have played in heavenly household.

The material always emphasizes that the heretics want to divorce God Almighty from evil. This is a repeated them in the anti-Marcionite literature. It is also the basis to all Jewish mystical thought ever since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein_Sof

As such what's being described isn't Manichaeanism. Its much closer to (if not identical with) Marcionitism.

aa5874

But, Hippolytus in "Refutation of All Heresies"7.17 will refute you.