Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Eowyn · 04-28-2006, 08:28 PM

Are there references in Paul to Joseph, Mary, Pilate, Caiphas, the Roman census that led Joseph and Mary to Egypt and other such things?

If not, is there any evidence that Paul believed Jesus to have been born and crucified in the first century?

Is it possible that the belief was around long before that?

Is there anything in Mark that dates Jesus' ministry to the first century AD?

RUmike · 04-28-2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eowyn

Is there anything in Mark that dates Jesus' ministry to the first century AD?

Mark tells us that Jesus was crucified during the reigns of Pilate and Caiphas. This places Jesus' death between the years 26 and 36 CE (if I'm not mistaken).

fromdownunder · 04-28-2006, 09:24 PM

I realise that you are talking about Paul and Mark, but:

John the Baptist, mentioned by Mark is generally placed in the first century CE, and he baptised Jesus. This story is repeated in the other synoptics.

I will stand corrected if I am wrong, but the Cyrenius census referred to in Luke that led Joseph and Mary to Bethlahem, not Egypt, occured in 6CE.

There is no independant evidence that the flight to Egypt set out in Matthew (because of the killing of all the first born sons) ever happened.

Norm

Eowyn · 04-28-2006, 09:40 PM

Silly me to have missed that important point about Mark, but what about Paul?

Is there metnion of John the Baptist, Pilate, Herod, or anyone else that would date Jesus to the first century?

Tigers! · 04-28-2006, 09:57 PM

Did you actually mean "Was Jesus born in the 1st C." rather than "had to be born in the 1st C"?

Dina Noun · 04-29-2006, 06:09 AM

Quote:

fromdownunder: I will stand corrected if I am wrong, but the Cyrenius census referred to in Luke that led Joseph and Mary to Bethlahem, not Egypt, occured in 6CE.

What evidence do you have that this census actually occurred?

Last I heard, there is no corroborating evidence, the whole ideal is implausible, and Luke was wrong about the dating of the census to boot ...

Quote:

Luke alone indicates that Joseph and Mary had come to Bethlehem to register for a census because - during the days of the Syrian governor Quirinius - Caesar Augustus had decreed that "the whole world" (presumably, the Roman Empire) should be taxed. Everyone, therefore, needed to register at their ancestral homes (for Joseph, Bethlehem). ...

... certain aspects of these accounts strike historians as completely implausible. Consider just Luke's account.

1. We have relatively good documentation for the regin of Caesar Augustus, but no mention in any source of a worldwide census.

2. Moreover, how could such a census be taken, in which everyone registered at the homes of their distant ancestors? How would they know where to go? Imagine the mass migrations. How is it that no source from the time even bothered to mention it?

3. Finally, we know from other sources - the Jewish historian Josephus, the Roman historian Tacitus, and some inscriptions - that despite Luke's account, Quirinius was not governor of Syria during the reign of King Herod in Palestine but ten years later.

(Bart D. Ehrman (Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill),Fact and Fiction in the Gospels (lecture 4 of the 24-part video lecture series "The Historical Jesus"), 2000, The Teaching Company)

Dina Noun · 04-29-2006, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Eowyn: Are there references in Paul to Joseph, Mary, Pilate, Caiphas, the Roman census that led Joseph and Mary to Egypt and other such things?

If not, is there any evidence that Paul believed Jesus to have been born and crucified in the first century?

This should help. Note that the author states that the list is exhaustive.

Quote:

The most prolific of the other [i.e., non-cannonical gospel] authors is Paul, in whose name appear thirteen of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament. But Paul gives us little information about Jesus. The following list is meant to be exhaustive:

1. He was born of a woman (Gal. 4:4)

2. He was a Jew (Gal. 4:4)

3. He had brothers, one of whom was named James (1 Cor. 9:5; Gal. 1:19)

4. He had twelve disciples (1 Cor. 15:5)

5. He ministered to Jews (Rom. 15:8)

6. He taught his followers that they should not get divorced and that they should pay their ministers (1 Cor. 7:11; 9-14)

7. He had a last supper with his disciples (1 Cor. 11:23-26)

8. He was betrayed (1 Cor. 11:23)

9. He was crucified (1 Cor. 2:2)

(Bart D. Ehrman (Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill), "Other Sources" (lecture 8 of the 24-part video lecture series "The Historical Jesus"), 2000, The Teaching Company)

A couple of additional points.

1. Note that Paul says (Gal. 4:4) that Jesus was born of a woman, not a VIRGIN. Odd, isn't it, that if Jesus was born of a virgin, the one time Paul mentions Jesus' birth he misses his chance to say this, and instead simply says that Jesus was born of a woman, like everyone else.

2. I've read in other sources that 1 Cor. 11:23 doesn't actually say that Jesus was betrayed, but rather that he was given over, and that God was one who did so, not Judas. Here's one...

Quote:

He adds that, in order to extract at any rate one such reference from the Pauline letters, scholars have relied on Luther's inaccurate rendering (perpetuated in many modern translations) of 1 Cor. 11:23 as "in the night when he was betrayed"; whereas in fact the Greek does not posit a betrayal (let alone a betrayal by Judas, whom Paul never mentions). It says only that Jesus was "given over" or "was delivered" to martyrdom - by God, as was the servant of Yahweh in the Greek of Isaiah 53:6, 12: "the Lord gave him up for our sins" and "his soul was delivered to death." (The passive voice, as in Paul's "was delivered", was often used in the OT and in early Christian literature as a passivum divinum, viz. to indicate that God was the agent, while avoding having to use the divine name.) Rom. 4:24f., likewise show that it was the Lord who both "delivered him up for our trespasses" and than "raised him for our justification". He "spared not his own Son", but "delivered him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32). Jesus "gave himself up" voluntarily to God's will for our redemption (Gal. 2:20). There is no suggestion that he was compromised by a third party.

(G. A. Wells, Can We Trust the New Testament?, Open Court, 2004 p2)

Benni72 · 04-29-2006, 08:52 AM

Paul mentions "brothers of the Lord" as his contemporaries (1 Cor. 9:5, Gal. 1:19). _If_ he means biological brothers of Jesus (I understand that it is a pretty big "if"), this implies that, according to Paul, Jesus must have belonged to the same generation.

fromdownunder · 04-29-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dina Noun

What evidence do you have that this census actually occurred?

The census and its date and Quirinius are documented in Josephus, _Antiquities_ 18.1.1. (from an II article)

Since I do not have access to Josephus, I can only go by what is available. There appears to be little or no argument that a census of some description took place in 6CE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dina Noun

Last I heard, there is no corroborating evidence, the whole ideal is implausible, and Luke was wrong about the dating of the census to boot ...

Why is the idea of the census implausible?

In any event, Luke does not date the census at all. He simply makes the (incorrect) assertion that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod (who died if 4BCE), and then states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem because of the census, (6CE)

One of him is wrong.

Norm

Eowyn · 04-29-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

The census and its date and Quirinius are documented in Josephus, _Antiquities_ 18.1.1. (from an II article)

Do you know if the census required people to go somewhere else to register?

04-28-2006, 08:28 PM	#1
Eowyn Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 156	Who says Jesus had to be born in 1st century AD? Are there references in Paul to Joseph, Mary, Pilate, Caiphas, the Roman census that led Joseph and Mary to Egypt and other such things? If not, is there any evidence that Paul believed Jesus to have been born and crucified in the first century? Is it possible that the belief was around long before that? Is there anything in Mark that dates Jesus' ministry to the first century AD?

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04-28-2006, 09:24 PM	#3
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	I realise that you are talking about Paul and Mark, but: John the Baptist, mentioned by Mark is generally placed in the first century CE, and he baptised Jesus. This story is repeated in the other synoptics. I will stand corrected if I am wrong, but the Cyrenius census referred to in Luke that led Joseph and Mary to Bethlahem, not Egypt, occured in 6CE. There is no independant evidence that the flight to Egypt set out in Matthew (because of the killing of all the first born sons) ever happened. Norm

04-28-2006, 09:40 PM	#4
Eowyn Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 156	Silly me to have missed that important point about Mark, but what about Paul? Is there metnion of John the Baptist, Pilate, Herod, or anyone else that would date Jesus to the first century?

04-28-2006, 09:57 PM	#5
Tigers! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On the wing, waiting for a kick Posts: 2,558	Did you actually mean "Was Jesus born in the 1st C." rather than "had to be born in the 1st C"?

04-29-2006, 08:52 AM	#8
Benni72 Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Rostock, Germany Posts: 143	Paul mentions "brothers of the Lord" as his contemporaries (1 Cor. 9:5, Gal. 1:19). _If_ he means biological brothers of Jesus (I understand that it is a pretty big "if"), this implies that, according to Paul, Jesus must have belonged to the same generation.

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