Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 01-02-2012, 02:47 PM

As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy.

It seems rather predictable that such a sect would have gained ascendancy sooner or later. It was beneficial to acquire links not only with the literate and philosophical elements of society but among those elements engaged in writing, copying, etc.

The new sect could be presented as a new "philosophy" that revered the ancient monotheistic teachings of the Jews and the teachings of Greek and Roman philosophers without most of the perceived stringencies of Jewish life.

It didn't seem to have been a matter of military, political or economic power since it would seem that in the 4th or 5th centuries that did not have significance.

Chili · 01-02-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

//

It didn't seem to have been a matter of military, political or economic power since it would seem that in the 4th or 5th centuries that did not have significance.

How about their ability to incur the benefit of God as opposed to the wrath of God? To accept this just consider that if the sins of our forefathers come to bear on us so will their virtues pay their dues to us.

Ahhhhhh, right, to be born beautiful is a special gift and to want to look beautiful is a burden without end.

Toto · 01-02-2012, 04:25 PM

Please give a source for this claim.

Chili · 01-02-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Please give a source for this claim.

If that was for me Toto, it would follow that if the sins of our forefathers come the rest on our children and grand children their virtues would be to our benefit, and this line about being born beautiful is a popular French proverb, I think, or at least it should be, and is just a spin on Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of us all, and then of course Snow White is the image that we all are looking for.

Besides that, they claim to have saints in heaven and that may mean something too.

Doug Shaver · 01-03-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy.

On what do you base that understanding? I've been on the lookout for a history of Christian origins written by a competent secular historian. Is there one you can recommend?

Duvduv · 01-03-2012, 07:11 AM

I think it was on the basis of reading online and conversations.
The way it sounds in the Justin texts is that Christ beliefs were presented as a philosophy, but also one that more ordinary people could appreciate, especially if they liked aspects of monotheistic Judaism and its antiquity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy.

On what do you base that understanding? I've been on the lookout for a history of Christian origins written by a competent secular historian. Is there one you can recommend?

aa5874 · 01-03-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy.

It seems rather predictable that such a sect would have gained ascendancy sooner or later. It was beneficial to acquire links not only with the literate and philosophical elements of society but among those elements engaged in writing, copying, etc.

The new sect could be presented as a new "philosophy" that revered the ancient monotheistic teachings of the Jews and the teachings of Greek and Roman philosophers without most of the perceived stringencies of Jewish life.

It didn't seem to have been a matter of military, political or economic power since it would seem that in the 4th or 5th centuries that did not have significance.

If you read the work's of Justin Martyr it is NOT all shown that Christians would have gained ascendancy.

Justin Martyr's "First Apology" actually shows that Justin was alarmed about the UNJUST HATRED and the WANTON ABUSE of people called Christians in the Roman Empire.

"First Apology"

Quote:

To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Caesar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them....

People called Christians were HATED and ABUSED, not only the JESUS cult Christians but ALL Christians.

Based on Justin, EVERY Tom, Dick and Harry, the blaspheming Magician Simon Magus and Menander, the Marcians, Valentinians, Basilidians, Saturnilians and even Marcionites called themselves Christians but were NOT.

The Jews HATED the Jesus cult of Christians and the Romans wanted them ABUSED or DEAD because they REFUSE to worship the Emperor as a God.

And then when we EXAMINE "Against Celsus" written about 100 years after Justin the JESUS CULT has gone UNDERGROUND and are branded as ATHEISTS and CANNIBALS.

"Against Celsus" 1.1

Quote:

The first point which Celsus brings forward, in his desire to throw discredit upon Christianity, is, that the Christians entered into secret associations with each other contrary to law, saying, that “of associations some are public, and that these are in accordance with the laws; others, again, secret, and maintained in violation of the laws.”....

The Jesus cult of Christians were regarded as operating ILLEGALLY in antiquity and were fearful for their own lives.

It was totally unprecendented that the Jesus cult of Christians would gain ascendancy in the Roman Empire.

Duvduv · 01-03-2012, 10:25 AM

So to what do you attribute the fact that "suddenly" they became popular (especially if the religion had not existed before Constantine) and everything turned around?? Anyway what EVIDENCE is there for these negative descriptions of "Justin" in those early days prior to Constantine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy.

It seems rather predictable that such a sect would have gained ascendancy sooner or later. It was beneficial to acquire links not only with the literate and philosophical elements of society but among those elements engaged in writing, copying, etc.

The new sect could be presented as a new "philosophy" that revered the ancient monotheistic teachings of the Jews and the teachings of Greek and Roman philosophers without most of the perceived stringencies of Jewish life.

It didn't seem to have been a matter of military, political or economic power since it would seem that in the 4th or 5th centuries that did not have significance.

If you read the work's of Justin Martyr it is NOT all shown that Christians would have gained ascendancy.

Justin Martyr's "First Apology" actually shows that Justin was alarmed about the UNJUST HATRED and the WANTON ABUSE of people called Christians in the Roman Empire.

"First Apology"

People called Christians were HATED and ABUSED, not only the JESUS cult Christians but ALL Christians.

Based on Justin, EVERY Tom, Dick and Harry, the blaspheming Magician Simon Magus and Menander, the Marcians, Valentinians, Basilidians, Saturnilians and even Marcionites called themselves Christians but were NOT.

The Jews HATED the Jesus cult of Christians and the Romans wanted them ABUSED or DEAD because they REFUSE to worship the Emperor as a God.

And then when we EXAMINE "Against Celsus" written about 100 years after Justin the JESUS CULT has gone UNDERGROUND and are branded as ATHEISTS and CANNIBALS.

"Against Celsus" 1.1

Quote:

The first point which Celsus brings forward, in his desire to throw discredit upon Christianity, is, that the Christians entered into secret associations with each other contrary to law, saying, that “of associations some are public, and that these are in accordance with the laws; others, again, secret, and maintained in violation of the laws.”....

The Jesus cult of Christians were regarded as operating ILLEGALLY in antiquity and were fearful for their own lives.

It was totally unprecendented that the Jesus cult of Christians would gain ascendancy in the Roman Empire.

rlogan · 01-03-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

On what do you base that understanding? I've been on the lookout for a history of Christian origins written by a competent secular historian. Is there one you can recommend?

Me too, and it doesn't exist as far as I know.

aa5874 · 01-03-2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So to what do you attribute the fact that "suddenly" they became popular (especially if the religion had not existed before Constantine) and everything turned around?? Anyway what EVIDENCE is there for these negative descriptions of "Justin" in those early days prior to Constantine?...

I did NOT make references to Justin alone. Apologetic sources claimed the Jesus cult and so-called Heretics were MARTYRED.

Based on Origen, Celsus wrote a book called "True Discourse" in which it is claimed the Jesus cult of Christians were operating contrary to the law and were essentially cannibals (consuming the flesh of INFANTS).

"Against Celsus" 6.40

Quote:

After these things, Celsus appears to me to act like those who, in their intense hatred of the Christians, maintain, in the presence of those who are utterly ignorant of the Christian faith, that they have actually ascertained that Christians devour the flesh of infants, and give themselves without restraint to sexual intercourse with their women....

It is clear that the Jesus cult of Christians was NOT predicted to gain ascendany any time soon in antiquity.

01-02-2012, 02:47 PM	#1
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	How the "Christians" Rose to the Top As I understand it, the "Christian" literati were able to establish their contacts with the elite of the regime (especially women) by virtue of the Judaic elements of their sect including messianic ones, and of course the force of literacy. It seems rather predictable that such a sect would have gained ascendancy sooner or later. It was beneficial to acquire links not only with the literate and philosophical elements of society but among those elements engaged in writing, copying, etc. The new sect could be presented as a new "philosophy" that revered the ancient monotheistic teachings of the Jews and the teachings of Greek and Roman philosophers without most of the perceived stringencies of Jewish life. It didn't seem to have been a matter of military, political or economic power since it would seem that in the 4th or 5th centuries that did not have significance.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-02-2012, 04:25 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please give a source for this claim.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.