Brother Daniel

Some of the ancient writers interpreted the disaster of 70 CE (destruction of the Temple, etc.) as divine punishment (on the Jews) for ... something. Some pointed to the death of Jesus. Others to the death of James. Maybe there were other "explanations".

Can anyone provide a summary of the different variants of the idea, and how they developed? As in, who said what, when?

Just curious.

Evoken

You may find some info here:

http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

Brother Daniel

Lots of info there on the events themselves; none on the question I asked. (I'm looking for ancient suggestions/claims of what exactly the Jews allegedly did wrong in order to trigger this episode of God's alleged wrath.) But thanks anyway - there's interesting stuff there.

judge

You could try this site . If no one is able to give a summary you will at least find some info there. It is basically a site a bout preterism which is a particular theological view of a minority of christians, but it does concern itself a lot with the events around 70 .a.d.
I've got afeeling you may find something nin Josephus. I'm just running out the door but if I get some time over the weekend and you don't get any answers I might try to get a little more detail.

Evoken

I see, I agree with judge that you may find something in the writtings of Josephus. Here is another link:

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/causeofDestruct.htm

I have not read it, I am just trying to help with the topic since I find it interesting too. But now I am dealing with other material and don't want to get mixed up between them.

Hope you find what you are looking for there,
Asimis

Shameless Hussy

Jewish teaching is pretty clear on this, I think. According to the Talmud, the fall of the temple was a sign of God removing Himself from His people, as they had moved away from His laws and teachings. Specifically, the "sin" which caused His ultimate turning away in 70 CE (allowing the temple to fall) was the turning away of Jew from Jew - the splitting of the Jewish people into rival factions. Also, all that Hellenizing probably didn't please Him. In essence, they forgot who they were and Who they were supposed to focus on.

I found this easily on a Google search:
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishh...the_Temple.asp

There's lots more online, easily available.

offa

I clicked on your url, shameless hussey, and here is my input. Your URL mentions "Masada". The problem with "Masada" is "LOCATION". Just because Josephus mentions "Masada" and and ruins were found on "Masada" does not mean they are one and the same. Josephus' Masada is another location, my guess is Herodium. When Herod fled from the Jews in c. 40 b.c.e. his Masada was probably Herodium. When Herod died at Jericho and was transported to Herodium these locations are a few kilometers apart. It is about LOCATIONS. The Jews were never in Egypt and Jesus was never in Galilee.
Also, the war of 70 c.e. was not, ever, one time, ever, mentioned in the New Testament. The writers were all dead by that time. The Jerusalem mentioned by those writers is another Jerusalem. If you want my sources read what I have just wrote again. I am the source. How do I derive my conclusions, I study Josephus and he has taught me. Read the Antiquities of the Jews, Book 13, Chapter 11 (one page) and, if you understand what Josephus is trying to tell you, then you will understand.

Btw, I just got in from New Jersey and have not been in my office since Friday a.m., I will be responding in the next few days.

offa

Shameless Hussy

You know, when you don't capitalize the first letters in my name, I wonder if you're hurling abuse. "Hey, who you callin' a shameless... oh wait, that's my name." :wink

Okay, let's just back up a sec and clarify something. I was offering the reasons for the fall of the 2nd temple as given in Jewish teachings. I gave one link that describes it from that perspective (I think), and suggested that there are plenty of other articles on the Jewish teachings re: this topic. Not all current teachings accept the Talmudic explanation, or they only accept it part-way. But as this topic directly pertains to an important moment in Jewish history, I think the Jewish perspective is more than a little relevant.
Whether you or I believe in what those teachings say does not have any bearing on the teachings themselves, or their importance.

Okay, I'm having trouble relating what you just wrote to the topic at hand. Are you suggesting the 2nd temple never fell? Never existed? Was in Herodium? (I'm not trying to be dense, I honestly don't follow you - can you clarify?)

And it was... Herodium?

Oh, I've read that chapter, thanks. What, specifically, do you imagine Josephus is trying to tell me about Antigonus and Aristobulus?

offa

Pardon me. I really mispelled your name Shameless Hussy, I apologise.

The Jerusalem that Jesus was crucified at is not the same Jerusalem that Caiaphas dwelt at.

About Antigonas and Aristobulus, my point is about Strato's Tower. Josephus is explaining that psuedo names for locations is common. Herodium is located near present day Jerusalem (Caiaphas' Jerusalem). This would be an ideal location for pseudo Masada. Be realistic, what the hell good would Masada do as a rebel stronghold. It is located miles away from Caiaphas' Jerusalem. What proof is there that Herod had any interest in Masada other than
Josephus' writings? And Josephus admits that other names are used for locations.

offa

Clivedurdle

So, the xians caused the temple's destruction?