Steven Carr

Isn't it true that John 7:38 is not part of any Scripture that God wanted to preserve, and that Jesus seemed to revere scriptures which are not part of God's Word?

Remarkably, some Christians say that if you point out what is a basic fact, suich a person has have a 'bias against Christianity overpowered whatever good sense and intelligence he possesses.' It is all part of a 'secular jihad'.

It 'clouds your ability to see the clear meaning of a text.'

Gosh, some Christian apologists really hate it when Biblical critics point out plain facts......

But surely it is simply true that John 7:38 does not refer to scripture although Jesus said it did.

Clivedurdle

Doesn't it connect to Joel 2 28? Bowels are the heart, the source.

Toto

John 7 [NIV]

Joel 2

Is this more Christian creative interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures?

judge

Jesus seems to refer to Zechariah 14 which reads,

6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD . When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea [2] and half to the western sea, [3] in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD , and his name the only name. .

Jesus is consistent here with the NT interpretation that earthly Jerusalem was not the real thing but only a shadow.

Clivedurdle

my comment was from the traditional pentecostal background I was brought up in - no such thing as xian interpretation - they were told this by the Holy Spirit!!





Aren't the more interesting non biblical sayings those that go back to Enoch?

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hi, Toto,

Thanks for posting this quote, although, unfortunately, this NIV translation, just like a few other "modern" translations, totally distorts the meaning of verse 7:38.

Here's a better translation, as well as some commentary by Loisy.

[quoting Loisy]

The Origins of the New Testament: Chapter 7
http://www.earlychristianwritings.co.../chapter7.html

An editorial hand has inserted into the text a
passage (vii, 37-39) which it is important to note,
not only on account of its correspondence with
another insertion into the story of the Passion (xix,
31-37), but also because it is seldom rightly
understood. The passage should read as follows:

"Now on the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood forth, and cried, saying: 'If any man is athirst, let him come to me, and let him drink, him who believes in me, According as Scripture has spoken, Rivers of living water shall flow out of his belly.'"

In applying this quotation (Zechariah xiii, 1; xiv, 8)
to the believer, the writer introduces a gross and
incongruous image. And the more incongruous
inasmuch as Jesus alone, and not the believer, can
be thought of as the source of the water of life.
The writer is referring to the water that burst from
the side of Jesus at the stroke of the soldier's
lance, and accordingly takes pains to tell us (39)
that the living water is the Spirit, to be given to
believers when Jesus has entered into his glory.[1]

[Note 1: ] For the full discussion of this passage, which has many important bearings, see Le Quatrième Evangile, 270-273.

[unquote]

This is purely a translational matter. Both the Byz and the Alex Greek texts are identical here.

o pisteuwn eiV eme kaqwV
eipen h grafh potamoi ek thV
koiliaV autou reusousin udatoV
zwntoV

Latin Vulgate
7:38 qui credit in me sicut dixit scriptura flumina de ventre eius fluent aquae vivae

King James Version
7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Young's Literal Translation
7:38 he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;`

All the best,

Yuri

Follower of Christ

....

Steven Carr

Zechariah 14:8 'On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.'

This doesn't seem very similar to John 7:38.

There are a lot more obvious examples of copying of scripture to be found in
http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm where we can see how stories were rewritten to become stories about Jesus.

Chili

It is obvious that rivers of water do not run out of our belly but it could be the case that rivers of living water will flow from the innermost depth of our being. If so, they will flow from our mind because the innermost "depth of our being" is not part of our belly but of our mind and there they will flow from all directions. But, since there is only a left and a right in our mind they will flow from both the left and the right (come hell or high water).

andrewcriddle

Joel 3:18 May be at least as relevant as Joel 2:28.
What I think is happening is that there is a tradition in the OT about a stream going forth from the temple in Jerusalem in the last days. This is expressed in Joel 3:18 and Zechariah 14:8 and referred to in Revelation 22:1.

This tradition seems ultimately based on Ezekiel 47:1-12

This tradition is in John 7:38 apparently applied to Christ and Christians. This may be related to the Johannine idea that the physical temple in Jerusalem has been replaced by Christ as the spiritual temple. See John 2 :21 'But he spoke of the temple of his body' and Revelation 21:22 'And I saw no temple in the city for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb'.

Andrew Criddle