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Old 01-09-2008, 07:06 PM   #1
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Default Must all Christians be inerrantists?

Consider the following from a Christian web site:

http://www.allabouttruth.org/all-scr...ficial-faq.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by allabouttruth.org

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial

How do we know that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial to us?

The Bible tells us that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial.

2 Peter 1:20-21 says, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

1 Corinthians 2:13 states, "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words." God impressed man with His message, then the individual author, using his own style of expression based on his personal, educational, and cultural resources put the message into words.

Romans 10:8 phrased it this way: ". . .The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart. . ." God communicated to the author the content that He wanted written, and the author phrased the content with his skill, style, mind, and language. We can be certain that, although the very words came from each author, the message was as God had intended and is authentic, reliable, and infallible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 reads, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." We are told that the Bible is not only the words of God, but it has great benefit to us.

Colossians 3:16 admonishes us to "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

The psalmist tells us in Psalms 119:11 that God's Word protects us from sin: "I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." From God's very first contact with man in Genesis to the final phrases of Revelation, He gave Scriptures to guide man's conduct.

However, man did not obey God's instruction from the beginning and sin entered the world through Adam. Since that time man has continued to challenge God's Word through disobedience. We have failed to see the tremendous benefits and blessings we could have received and instead suffered the consequences of our actions: sickness, wars, plagues, and curses.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 pleads with us to make the right choice: "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. . ."

The only way to truly understand the concept of blessings that come through obedience and following God's words is to put them to the test. If we want God to bless us and to care for us and keep His wonderful promises to us, then we must submit to the guidance that He has given us for living. I know that in my own life, I sometimes see God's words as a bit odd next to the standards set by this world and therefore find them hard to comprehend and follow. Yet when I challenge those odd words by obeying them, I have found God to do exactly as He said He would do.

For example, Matthew 5:44 tells us, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." That is a very strange concept in this world. Yet when my husband and I started praying for his very difficult boss, the entire work situation and their relationship changed. It was phenomenal! His boss seemed to become more personable and somehow less demanding. "Give and it will be given you. . ." (Luke 6:38).

How can you give and yet get back more? I have found it impossible to out give God. It is when I give up trying to solve situations on my own and seek wisdom from God's words in the Bible, that I find the answers and solutions that I could not find on my own. When I regularly read the Bible and apply it in my life, I begin to clearly see God, and learn to understand His plan for my life. "I applied my heart to know, to search and seek out wisdom and the reason for things" (Ecclesiastes 7:25 NKJV).
Does that Scriptural evidence indicate that all Christians must be inerrantists or not?

Glenn Miller is a very intelligent and well-educated fundamentalist Christian. His extensive web site is at http://www.christian-thinktank.com/. Following are exceprts from an article that I found at his web site:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/let1101.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Miller

The SECOND item is a purely 'theoretical' one, that deals with the issue of biblical inerrancy. I have pondered this subject for some time now (in the spirit of the biblical injunction to 'test all things' and in line with the biblical ethic of honesty and commitment to truth--cf. Jesus words "the truth shall set you free"), and have noticed a strange pattern in my life vis-Ã*-vis this idea.

I have noticed that I have become an 'accidental inerrantist'. What I mean by this is that I do not see the 'need' for it, but find the data 'for it' to be persuasive to me. Let me explain.

From a philosophical point of view (esp. philosophy of language), I don't 'need' inerrancy. Language, in my way of understanding it currently, has SO MUCH redundancy in it that 'errors' are corrected in the process of communication. For example, people routinely make linguistic 'slips' in speech, yet we have no difficulty in getting the meaning of a sentence, for example. Linguists tell us that this success is due to the redundancy that occurs in normal language. There are enough multiple 'clues' scattered throughout a linguistic statement (written or oral) that allow us to 'construct' any missing piece or 're-construct' any erroneous piece. So, from the standpoint of linguistic communication, God could have allowed 'errors' in His bible (if He so chose), and still have built in so much redundancy so as to effect communication of all the truth we need to have a proper relationship to Himself, to other persons, and to the universe at large.

From a theological point of view, I don't 'need' inerrancy, either. The fact that some ambiguity in His communication SEEMS TO BE deliberate (as a device to filter out the true 'seekers' and open-minded--cf. the parables), means that theologically He could have allowed errors (if He so chose) in the bible to function as the minority 'counter-weight' to the OTHER clear, mainstream datapoints. This would simply look like discordant data within a scientific theory. The OTHER, majority data points would be properly weighted by the open-minded and truth-seekers, and the communication would occur.

From a biblical point of view, I cannot actually 'have' inerrancy to the degree needed by the typical proponent. The reason for this is the simple fact that biblical statements ABOUT the bible CANNOT be complete in their scope descriptions, and hence, any doctrine of inerrancy could at best apply to only PARTS of the bible.

This needs a bit of explanation. Some items, such as the extent of the canon, can never be settled by an appeal to scripture (at least as we have it). Although the undergirding teaching that supports and predicts a 'canon-occurrence' is VERY strong in my opinion, such teaching does not specify the contents of that 'beforehand'. Since the last book of the bible does NOT contain a definitive list of what books are in the canon, we are forced to deal with the issue historically--NOT biblically. [The same argument applies to many of the 'recursive' biblical statements. That is, the bible 'itself' cannot tell us which textual variants are the originals--no text can do that.]

So, even with the fact that the Bible DOES confirm its own trustworthiness in matters of fact (e.g. Jesus view of the OT stories), there are no passages that identify exhaustively the NT list of books (for example) that fall into that category. Hence, the biblical teaching on inerrancy is important (and accurate) but is not comprehensive enough.

So, I arrive at the practical point that I sorta don't 'need' the teaching from a systematic standpoint. But at the same time I find that I DO BELIEVE IN INERRANCY.

The reason I do is simple--I have a partial doctrine of it from the NT, and every passage I have examined personally (that were HIGH candidates for being 'errors') somehow eludes that title. The historical errors all seem to get 'resolved', the contradictions all seem to have a 'strange' degree of ambiguity in one statement or the other, with the result that I really can't in good conscience say they 'contradict'--an honesty thing, not a religious thing!

Conservative, evangelical scholars have long ago identified the passages that have known TEXTUAL problems in them (i.e. we don't know what the original actually 'said'), but these constitute 'missing data' not 'erroneous data'.

The result is simply that I cannot find a demonstrable error, and the consequence in terms of my worldview is that I believe the original OT and NT texts (most of which we seem to have, buried in the various textual traditions--a DIFFERENT issue altogether) were/are without errors in matters of fact. Ergo, I am an 'accidental inerrantist'. (I just purchased the Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy, or some such title. Although my first glance through it left me a bit disappointed in the 'quality' of the alleged errors, I will need to look at it more closely before I reply to it.)
Regarding "There are enough multiple 'clues' scattered throughout a linguistic statement (written or oral) that allow us to 'construct' any missing piece or 're-construct' any erroneous piece," no, not "any missing piece." For instance, Ezekiel says that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre. That not happen. At the very least, the claim is needlessly misleading if the God of the Bible exists.

Now how in the world does Miller expect millions of people over the last 2,000 years who did not know how to read and write, and did not live near anyone who had read the Bible, to find "multiple 'clues' scattered throughout a linguistic statement (written or oral) that allow us to 'construct' any missing piece or 're-construct' any erroneous piece"?

Regarding "The result is simply that I cannot find a demonstrable error, and the consequence in terms of my worldview is that I believe the original OT and NT texts (most of which we seem to have, buried in the various textual traditions--a DIFFERENT issue altogether) were/are without errors in matters of fact," there are not any demonstrable errors in copies of the New York Times either, but what does that prove? What demonstrable errors has Miller found in deism?

It certainly is not difficult to find needless demonstrable confusion in the Bible. The issue of slavery is a good example. There is no doubt that the Bible does not do a good job of addressing the issue of slavery.

It would be nice if Miller would explain why God did not inspire the Bible writers to write more clearly. For instance, the accounts of the events of the tomb could surely have been written much more clearly in ways that would have discourage dissent instead of inviting dissent.

I think that Miller has Master's degree in philosophy, and a Master's degree in computer science. James Holding is a big fan of his.
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Old 01-09-2008, 07:33 PM   #2
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Consider the following from a Christian web site:
http://www.allabouttruth.org/all-scr...ficial-faq.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by allabouttruth.org

All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial

How do we know that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial to us?

The Bible tells us that all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial.

Quote:
Does that Scriptural evidence indicate that all Christians must be inerrantists or not?
All theists whether fundamentalists or liberals are inerrantists since whatever position they hold is believed to be true, without logic, without evidence and void of reason.

The first three sentences of passage show clearly that theists' position is absolute. He verifies his belief by his own belief.

The theist knows his belief is true because he believes.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:08 PM   #3
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Must all Christians be inerrantists?
Some Christians think so, and some non-Christians agree with them.

There is no other argument for an affirmative answer to the question.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:42 PM   #4
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Does that Scriptural evidence indicate that all Christians must be inerrantists or not?
No. It only means is that given inerrancy, the Bible is inerrant--which of course is to say nothing at all.

Why, what do you think?
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Old 01-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #5
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Any religious organisation that list something like the following:
http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-bible.htm
Quote:
The church confesses the Scriptures to be the Word of God written, witnessing to God's self-revelation. Where that Word is read and proclaimed, Jesus Christ the Living Word is present by the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the reading, hearing, preaching, and confessing of the Word are central to Christian worship. The session shall ensure that in public worship the Scripture is read and proclaimed regularly in the common language(s) of the particular church. (Book of Order W-2.2001)

Leaders in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) can be expected to affirm that "... the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments...[are]...., by the Holy Spirit, the unique and authoritative witness to Jesus Christ in the Church universal, and God's Word to [them]." (Book of Order G-14.0405b.2)
And those that subscribe or affirm to this must be inerrantists. I see no room for equivocation here. It seems quite straightforward.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic
Does that Scriptural evidence indicate that all Christians must be inerrantists or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatsoff
No. It only means is that given inerrancy, the Bible is inerrant--which of course is to say nothing at all.
What do you mean by "which of course is to say nothing at all"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hatsoff
Why, what do you think?
Based upon what I posted previously, it appears to me that the Bible says in a number places that humans had nothing to do with the writing of the Bible of their own accord, and did exactly what God told them to do, and by implication that God has preserved the originals with the exceptions of scribal and copyist errors.

In my opinion, a loving, rational God would not use copies of copies of ancient texts as a primary means of communicating with humans.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:54 PM   #7
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What do you mean by "which of course is to say nothing at all"?
It's circular reasoning, which means that the Bible is inerrant if it is inerrant.

Quote:
Based upon what I posted previously, it appears to me that the Bible says in a number places that humans had nothing to do with the writing of the Bible of their own accord, and did exactly what God told them to do, and by implication that God has preserved the originals with the exceptions of scribal and copyist errors.
I think that was the common sentiment of the New Testament authors regarding the Old Testament, but I don't think the authors of the latter shared the same absolutist tendencies--at least, I don't get that impression. Rather, it seemed like there was a very great distinction between their treatment of prophetic sayings and narrative legend/history.

That's just my own musing, though. I haven't thought a great deal about it.

Quote:
In my opinion, a loving, rational God would not use copies of copies of ancient texts as a primary means of communicating with humans.
I would agree. However, I'd also be careful not to let that kind of concern take precedent over objective data. There are plenty of reasons to reject Christianity without resorting to simple incredulity.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:08 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic
In my opinion, a loving, rational God would not use copies of copies of ancient texts as a primary means of communicating with humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatsoff
I would agree. However, I'd also be careful not to let that kind of concern take precedent over objective data. There are plenty of reasons to reject Christianity without resorting to simple incredulity.
I am not aware of any objective data about the motives of the God of the Bible. In my opinion, when examining the morality of any being, motives are everything. I believe that incredulity regarding many of God's actions and allowances are warrented.
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:56 PM   #9
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:20 AM   #10
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John I have claimed to be both Christian an a non inerrantist.I know you take exception to this and perhaps it is a oxymoron.Or you may just think of me as a moron

In any case,I can not in good conscience say that the bible I hold in my hand has no scriptures at all that are free from error or possible contradiction.Considering our Old testament is derived from the Masorectic Text,as opposed to the Septuagint causes problems to begin with.

Consider the problem with Hebrew 10 vs 5 in comparison to Psalms 40 vs 6 and C I Scofields explanation for the discrepancy.Wherefore when he cometh into the world,he saith,sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,but a body hast thou pepared me;Psa 40 6:Sacrifice and offering thou didst notdesire;mine ears hast thou opened;burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Scofields explanation: This quotation from Ps.40:6 Follows the LXX,with a minor variation,instead of the Hebrew,as do many of the several hundred quotations of the O.T.Found in the N.T.quotations are used in various ways1) Invariably the authors attribute unqualified divine authority the O.T.,in some instances basing their argument on one word Mt 2:15;22:43-45;Jhn 10:34;19:36-37;Rom4:3 etc...(2) The Septuagint is usually employed,as it is here in Hebrews in the same way as an english translation may be quoted today(Mt 1:23cp.Isa 7:14 in LXX)(3)Variations in quotations may originate in the desire to translate the the original Hebrew more accurately than the LXX(1 Cor 14:21:cpIsa 28:11-12 in LXX and Hebrew).(4)Many quotations were not intended to be verbatim,but are paraphrases designed to bring out the meaning or particular application(Gal 4.30:cp.Gen 21.10).(5)Some quotations are a summary of O.T. truth taken from several passages,giving the sense if not the exact words of the original(Rom11.26-27:cp.Isa.59.20-21and Isa27.9).(6)In some cases the quotation is only an allusion and is not intended to be an exact quotation(Rom 9.27:cp.Isa10.22-23).And(7) the Holy Spirit who inspired the O.T. was free to reword a quotation just as a human author may restate his own writings in other words without impugning the accuracy of the original statement(mt 2.6:cp.Mic5.2)The doctrine of plenary inspiration requires only that revelation be expressed without error.

Perhaps this does not represent an example of errancy;however it does show how verses can say different things and yet not be problematic or considered error.

Also a leading atheist Frank Zidler said this (although being sarcastic) The problem for the true believers is this:The Greek version (Septuagint) reflects a Hebrew text more than a thousand years older than the Hebrew text used as the standard for thekjv.Shouldn't we follow the Greek even if it is a translation instead of the Hebrew?It should be noted that the authors of the N.T. when citing the O.T. cited it in Greek resembling the LXX far more often than the Masorectic Textus Receptus.If the LXX was good enough for Jesus,shouldn't it be good enough for the Presbyterians?

Whose says atheist have nothing of value to say.

Lets look at some key differences between the LXX and the MT Where the LXX seems to be superior: Age of Levitical service,MT: Num 4.3,23,30,35,39 the age of the Levitical priest qualified to minister in the Temple was between 30 to 50.MT Num 8.24 the ages between 25 to 50

In the LXX both chps say between 25-50 each time no discrepancy.How many years of famine? 2 Sam 24.13 7 years,1Chr 21.12 3 years.LXX Reads 3 years in both.Notice Luke 3.36 that Cainan is within the lineage of Christ,yet not found in Gen 11.12The LXX does include Cainan agrees with Luke,and many more.

Louis Cappel,Hebrew Scholar says the various readings in the O.T. text and the differences between the ancient versions and the MT convinced him that the integrity of the Hebrew text as held by Protestants,was UNTENABLE.This amounted to an attack upon the verbal inspiration of scripture,bitter however as was the opposition,it was not long before his results were accepted by Scholars.

There is even support for the idea that the Talmudic Masorectic Jews intentionally corrupted the MT.

Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho declares:They have altogether taken away many scriptures from the translations effected by those sevnty elders was with Ptolemy and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to be have been set forth expressly a God and man.

So yes I have no problem saying my bible has issues,and no I don't have to stick my head in the sand and say it does not in order to remain a Christian.
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