spin

I've seen people bandying about dates for the dating of Paul, but I don't know of any grounds for saying that Paul must have written before or after a certain time or event.

There is a reference already looked at here I think which talks of Paul being sought by the "ethnarch under Aretas the king" (2 Cor 11:32) -- a very strange reference indeed when one considers that an Aretas had control of Damascus when the Romans arrived in Syria circa 65 BCE and took direct control of Syria including Damascus (Pompey met the disputants for the Jerusalem throne in Damascus in 64 BCE), though they lost it temporarily to the Parthians around 39 BCE but regained it quickly. The Nabataeans never actually challenged Rome and at worst caused Herod Antipas difficulties with their occupation of part of Peraea. So this event mentioned in 2 Cor 11:32 is very strange indeed.

Has anyone got any surefire dating indications from the Pauline corpus or have any light to shed on this strange comment regarding Aretas and Damascus which would ostenxibly put Paul there before 65 BCE?

This question is stimulated by trying to see what the initial foundations are for christian development.


spin

andrewcriddle

Philippians 4:22 refers to Christians in 'Caesar's Household'

Caesar's Household as a technical term is unlikely to be earlier than 27 BCE (when Ocatavius took the title of Augustus) and is probably a good deal later.

(The early form is probably the Latin 'famiily of Augustus' then 'Familia Caesaris ' of which Philippians 4:22 is a Greek rendering.)

Hence it is unlikely that Paul can date from before the middle of the 1st century BCE.

Andrew Criddle

spin

I don't think Paul dates from that period either, but I gave the Aretas material as a problem with the text.

Philippians, if my rusty Pauline reading is correct, is seen as a composite letter which has a core of Pauline material (3:1b? - 4:9?) plus other material. (Is this not correct?) What do you really make of the veracity of Phil 4:22 and its "especially those of Caesar's household"?


spin

Amaleq13

Here are a couple earlier threads on the subject for review:

Dating Paul's Epistles

When were Paul's letters written?

spin

Just checked them (and I was a participant in them) and they provide no positive dating indications, yet we assume a date.


spin

Clivedurdle

From capnkirk in thread above.

I think Ellegard makes a convincing case for a BCE dating - I would say 85 BCE was still on the table.

andrewcriddle

Many scholars (but not IIUC the majority) regard Philippians as composite in the sense of fragments of several genuine Pauline letters to Philippi artificially joined together.

Again IIUC this is not usually a suggestion that substantial parts of the letter are not by Paul at all.

I regard 4:22 as by Paul and as early evidence of the unusually high density of Christians among the freedmen and freedwomen of the Imperial bureaucracy.

Andrew Criddle

spin

I find it so improbable that it reaches the level of farce in my mind.

With conventional wisdom we are talking of the mid 1st c. and you are contemplating an "unusually high density of Christians among the freedmen and freedwomen of the Imperial bureaucracy". Within 25 years of the hypothetical start of the christian sect in Judaea that it had spread not only to Rome, but also through "the freedmen and freedwomen of the Imperial bureaucracy". (Wildfire religion here, folks.) Perhaps you have some classical source to assist you with your analysis.


spin

yalla

I checked the Aretas stuff out as best as I could using Google.
I found lots.
But nothing in particular that appeared to be based on research or primary information.
Most of it was mere apologetics which chucked the Aretas stuff in as interesting trivia.
Some material purported to be historical analysis but I could not readily see the sources used for another restatement of the usual line re dating Aretas.
Basically most sites simply repeated the standard line, again revealing that there is very little known at all about anything and most statements are just regurgitation of unquestioned orthodoxy.
Frustrating!

Gotta go the Crows are playing the Saints.

spin

Ootta phukkatta Crows?