Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-29-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Out of the world's population of 6.5 billion people, about 4.5 billion do not believe in your 'dominant' religion.

Within the 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, many of them won't agree with your specific beliefs.

I understand what you're saying, but this survey was taken from those who attend Church services. What about the people who do not attend Church (like myself), and what about the Muslims that live in 3rd world Islamic countries that execute people who convert to Christianity? There are millions of people who have to hide their faith because they fear for their life.

The true and accurate number of Christianity can increase. The only way we would know the exact number is if every single person on the earth was asked their religious preference. And then, even Muslims who are Christian in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan...etc,etc would not confirm their beliefs in Jesus Christ because they would be hanged.

Deus Ex · 09-29-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBIH

Yes, God knew since the dawn of creation that The Serpent would trick mankind, but that is the price of freewill. We make good choices, and we make bad choices. The good choice is obeying God and his Word. The bad choice is disobeying God and allowing Satan to fool you.

So, all the sin in the world is a direct consequence of having freewill?

Are you not supposed to have freewill in heaven?

Better hope God does not plant another forbidden tree in the center of heaven or you might start the whole cycle over again. :constern01:

Deus Ex · 09-29-2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Out of the world's population of 6.5 billion people, about 4.5 billion do not believe in your 'dominant' religion.

Within the 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, many of them won't agree with your specific beliefs.

I understand what you're saying, but this survey was taken from those who attend Church services. What about the people who do not attend Church (like myself), and what about the Muslims that live in 3rd world Islamic countries that execute people who convert to Christianity? There are millions of people who have to hide their faith because they fear for their life.

The true and accurate number of Christianity can increase. The only way we would know the exact number is if every single person on the earth was asked their religious preference. And then, even Muslims who are Christian in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan...etc,etc would not confirm their beliefs in Jesus Christ because they would be hanged.

So you believe the actual number of Christians is much higher? Even if that were true the majority of the world would still not believe in Christianity.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-29-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

So, all the sin in the world is a direct consequence of having freewill?

Yes, making the wrong choice can have it's consequences.

Quote:

Are you not supposed to have freewill in heaven?

Freewill from what? In heaven, there is no wrong or evil. So what other Freewill are you talking about? God gave us the freewill to choose right from wrong.. good vs. evil. I don't think wrong and evil exist in the Kingdom of God.

Quote:

Better hope God does not plant another forbidden tree in the center of heaven or you might start the whole cycle over again. :constern01:

No, once the world comes to an abrupt end. That will be the end of the human race. We were given only one oppurtunity to make the choice of right from wrong. There will not be another 'forbidden tree'.

funinspace · 09-29-2009, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Out of the world's population of 6.5 billion people, about 4.5 billion do not believe in your 'dominant' religion.

Within the 2.1 billion Christians worldwide, many of them won't agree with your specific beliefs.

I understand what you're saying, but this survey was taken from those who attend Church services. What about the people who do not attend Church (like myself), and what about the Muslims that live in 3rd world Islamic countries that execute people who convert to Christianity? There are millions of people who have to hide their faith because they fear for their life.

The true and accurate number of Christianity can increase. The only way we would know the exact number is if every single person on the earth was asked their religious preference. And then, even Muslims who are Christian in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan...etc,etc would not confirm their beliefs in Jesus Christ because they would be hanged.

Sounds like you are day dreaming now. How about all those cultural Christians who get caught up in the statistics, who at most give your God lip service? Do you think your Jesus respects lip service? Details already addressed here:
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...&postcount=187

IBelieveInHymn · 09-29-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I understand what you're saying, but this survey was taken from those who attend Church services. What about the people who do not attend Church (like myself), and what about the Muslims that live in 3rd world Islamic countries that execute people who convert to Christianity? There are millions of people who have to hide their faith because they fear for their life.

The true and accurate number of Christianity can increase. The only way we would know the exact number is if every single person on the earth was asked their religious preference. And then, even Muslims who are Christian in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan...etc,etc would not confirm their beliefs in Jesus Christ because they would be hanged.

So you believe the actual number of Christians is much higher? Even if that were true the majority of the world would still not believe in Christianity.

I didn't say I actually believe it. I said there could be a possibility that the recent surveys could be inaccurate. We already know 2.1 billion Christians exist, but what about those uncounted people who do not confirm their religious preference due to fear of death? If you are caught reading the Bible in a country like Saudi Arabia, they will rape you, torture you, and then probably behead you or hang you.

Me personally, If I lived in Saudi Arabia, I would confirm I'm a Christian believer. I'm not going to let mankind put any fear in my heart and soul.

Sheshbazzar · 09-29-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Yet according to the text they had no knowledge or understanding of what 'good' and 'evil' was until -after- they ate the fruit, only -then- did they know that they were naked.

They had knowledge of right from wrong, but not good vs. evil. That is until Satan showed them.

God knew what was going to happen, but he wasn't going to interfer with their choice of freewill. If God interfered, then he would be going against his own word. And that is allowing mankind to make their own decisions.

A little problem with that explanation Hymn.
YHWH had not yet given His words and Adam and Eve had no Bible's to resort to to gain any knowledge of the subject of free will or the consequences of their choices.
Moreover the Bible even today says virtually nothing about the exercise of 'free will'. It does however have a lot to say about a Divine 'plan', God's 'will' and 'predestination'.

Do you know what the words 'destined', 'predestined' and 'predestination' mean?

Deus Ex · 09-29-2009, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Freewill from what? In heaven, there is no wrong or evil. So what other Freewill are you talking about? God gave us the freewill to choose right from wrong.. good vs. evil. I don't think wrong and evil exist in the Kingdom of God

God could have created this world the same way as he created Heaven. God wants the majority of his children to end up in hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Better hope God does not plant another forbidden tree in the center of heaven or you might start the whole cycle over again. :constern01:

Quote:

No, once the world comes to an abrupt end. That will be the end of the human race. We were given only one oppurtunity to make the choice of right from wrong. There will not be another 'forbidden tree'.

How can you know the will of a transcendent being? You cannot. You are just making shit up to suit your own theology.

Deus Ex · 09-29-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Me personally, If I lived in Saudi Arabia, I would confirm I'm a Christian believer. I'm not going to let mankind put any fear in my heart and soul.

Bullshit.

It is easy to be all courageous sounding when you live in a country with freedom of religion.

cgordon · 09-29-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

http://www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/Ez00b.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebucha..._II_of_Babylon

Citations are always good when asserting fact.

Now, that said, the historical fact of N defeating the Egyptians is pretty irrelevant to the question of whether this was fuflifflment of prophecy.

There's a good analysis of the problem here: http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/992front.html.

Quote:

Quote:

In rather plain language, Ezekiel predicted a total destruction and desolation of Egypt that would last for 40 years. It never happened, and no amount of rationalization can make that failure a success.

Another analysis of this proble is here:
http://www.errancy.org/egypt.html

Quote:

According to the NIV Study Bible, the date Ezekiel received the prophecy was April 26, 571 B.C. Plainly then, this prophecy cannot apply to any event before that date. It's known that Nebuchadnezzar did attack Egypt around 568 B.C., but that attack was evidently not particularly successful.

And a pro-Biblical entry at:
http://bibleencyclopedia.com/nebuchadnezzar.htm

outlines the Biblical N, but concludes with:

Quote:

The failure of Nebuchadnezzar to mention any of the particular persons or events recorded in Daniel does not disprove their historicity, any more than his failure to mention the battle of Carchemish, or the siege of Tyre and Jerusalem, disproves them. The fact is, we have no real historical inscription of Nebuchadnezzar, except one fragment of a few broken lines found in Egypt.

So, at best, the Biblical N is problematic to inerrantists, in that while he is a historical person, and probably did much of what is attributed to him, the timelines don't exactly mesh and ... historically ... much of the history of N comes from Biblical sources themselves, rather than actual archeological/historical sources.

Good effort, though.

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