Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-08-2010, 11:34 AM

In the midst of this interesting article on Christians with advanced degrees who claim to believe that demons and angels really exist, there is this:

Quote:

Early Christian scholar James Tabor, author of The Jesus Dynasty, says that in his translation of the entire Hebrew Bible (called “The Original Bible” project), he will not use the word “angel” once. “It’s the Hebrew word ‘malach,’” he says, “which means messenger. And even though in some cases they are spiritual entities from God, the word ‘angel’ is misleading. The same word is also used for human messengers of King David. It’s the same word! So in the Hebrew Bible, ‘malach’ doesn’t have that ‘angel’ connotation of winged creatures benevolently watching over us.”

He goes on: “‘Demon’ doesn’t occur at all in the Hebrew Bible. Never. There’s one story about beings in the heavenly court with God, and one of them says, ‘Let me be a lying spirit in the mouth of this prophet.’ Almost like, let me go play this trick. But he’s not a demon in any traditional sense. So although the ancient Hebrews believed in entities beyond this world, it wasn’t thickly populated so that evil would be explained by these ‘demons.’”

What happened, he explains, was that “in later periods, in the Hellenistic world, you get this sense of pessimism, which may correlate with the rise of angels and demons. Why is there war, disease, injustice, suffering? There has to be more of an explanation than just fate, they reasoned. And I think it was very convenient for people to imagine that if there’s sickness, it’s because there are demons. It’s this attempt to explain the world with all of its troubles in some transcendent way, to explain why there’s such evil. There’s a bit of that in the Hebrew Bible, but when you open the New Testament, you’re suddenly in that world where much of Jesus’ activities involve casting out demons and healing the sick.”

Tabor concludes that “the demon-populated world, thick as flies, causing every evil, with Satan at the helm, with myriads of demons, is a comparatively late development and probably tells us very little about the cosmos as it really is.”

It seems that the early Hebrews, before Hellenistic influence, felt that God created evil, and interpreted misfortune as some sort of divine punishment for breaking a commandment.

Was there suddenly more sickness in Hellenistic times that called for this new explanation? :constern01:

show_no_mercy · 04-08-2010, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Was there suddenly more sickness in Hellenistic times that called for this new explanation? :constern01:

I read a blog post (don't remember where at the moment) that argued that Judea was relatively isolated even during its multiple subjugations by outside nations until the Ptolemy/Seleucus drama. Since Judea was smack in the middle of their territories, they were on battleground of Hellenic culture wars. Thus in this time period a lot of Greeks were setting up forts, cities, etc. in and around Judea as a front for these Ptolemaic/Seleucid clashes.

This was the time period that the Jews were inundated with Hellenic thought and cosmogeny.

OAO · 04-08-2010, 11:51 AM

The Koine Greek word for angel, ἄγγελος, means messenger.

Tommy · 04-08-2010, 12:05 PM

Aren't angels based on eunuchs? - therefore, the source could be any slave-holding culture.

In any case, medieval theologians would surely have invented them in the same way physicists theorise particles: points of pure will free of time and matter...

Newfie · 04-08-2010, 12:48 PM

So, does this mean that "angels" might even be non-supernatural messengers? Even humans serving a purpose, like prophets? Where they simply associated with creatures like the cherubim, which were described as being supernatural chaos beasts with wings?

show_no_mercy · 04-08-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

So, does this mean that "angels" might even be non-supernatural messengers? Even humans serving a purpose, like prophets?

Yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genesis 32:3

Jacob sent messengers ahead of him to his brother Esau into the land of Seir, the country of Edom

απεστειλεν δε Ιακωβ αγγελους (a[n]ggelous) εμπροσθεν αυτου προς Ησαυ τον αδελφον αυτου εις γην Σηιρ εις χωραν Εδωμ

Loomis · 04-08-2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It seems that the early Hebrews, before Hellenistic influence, felt that God created evil, and interpreted misfortune as some sort of divine punishment for breaking a commandment.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Check out Isaiah 45:7

(I am) the one who forms light and creates darkness;

the one who brings about peace and creates evil.

I am Yahweh, who accomplishes all these things.

Call me a nut but it looks to me like this was written to “correct” other believers who thought that Yahweh did not create evil.

Do you understand what I mean?

It's reactionary. The author was responding to the issue of if Yahweh created evil. He was answering the question of if Yahweh created evil. He wouldn’t have wrote it in the absence of confusion or disagreement.

Loomis · 04-08-2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Early Christian scholar James Tabor, author of The Jesus Dynasty, says that in his translation of the entire Hebrew Bible (called “The Original Bible” project), he will not use the word “angel” once. “It’s the Hebrew word ‘malach,’” he says, “which means messenger. And even though in some cases they are spiritual entities from God, the word ‘angel’ is misleading. The same word is also used for human messengers of King David. It’s the same word! So in the Hebrew Bible, ‘malach’ doesn’t have that ‘angel’ connotation of winged creatures benevolently watching over us.”

He’s right.

What does Tabor have to say about the Yahweh v. Messenger of Yahweh fiasco in Exodus 3:2?

Loomis · 04-08-2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OAO

The Koine Greek word for angel, ἄγγελος, means messenger.

Maybe. But in Psalm 8:5 LXX and Hebrews 2:7 they used it as a substitute for “gods.”

Evidently there was something about the word “gods” that ruffled their Greek feathers.

Cesc · 04-09-2010, 05:02 AM

I'm thinking that Book of Enoch as well as influence from Persian religion also tell us something about how the various concepts of "angel/demon" was formed in post-exilic Judaism.

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04-08-2010, 11:51 AM	#3
OAO Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Southeast Posts: 841	The Koine Greek word for angel, ἄγγελος, means messenger.

04-08-2010, 12:05 PM	#4
Tommy Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tasmania Posts: 383	Aren't angels based on eunuchs? - therefore, the source could be any slave-holding culture. In any case, medieval theologians would surely have invented them in the same way physicists theorise particles: points of pure will free of time and matter...

04-08-2010, 12:48 PM	#5
Newfie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,457	So, does this mean that "angels" might even be non-supernatural messengers? Even humans serving a purpose, like prophets? Where they simply associated with creatures like the cherubim, which were described as being supernatural chaos beasts with wings?

04-09-2010, 05:02 AM	#10
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	I'm thinking that Book of Enoch as well as influence from Persian religion also tell us something about how the various concepts of "angel/demon" was formed in post-exilic Judaism.

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