Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 04-02-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This is weak and very untrue lets see what Daneil actually says about the Median and Persians:

Daniel told the last king of Babylon "Your kingdom is DIVIDED (a kingdom cannot be divided by a single kingdom) and given to the MEDES AND PERSIANS." The Medes AND Persians. The medes are one arm of the image the Persians the other arm.

Gabriel: " The ram which you saw having TWO HORNS are the kings of MEDIA AND PERSIA." Daniel ch.8 is about the Medes and Persians going to war aganst the Greeks.

Cyrus defeated his Grandfather the king of Media and unified the medes and persians....Medo-Persia. Daniel does not seperate the Medes from the Persians. In fact in the book of Daniel the kings of Medo-Persia were either Medes or Persians.

Critics try (unsucessfully) to seperate the Medes and Persians to place one of them as the third kingdom and Greece the Fourth. Because if Rome is the fourth (it clearly is) then the lies about Daniel becomes unraveled.....Rome rose to power after the supposed 2nd century writting and divided much later as well as destroyed Israel which Gabriel predicted they would. The accuracy of these predictions causes a BIGGG problem to them....because it would prove that God exist....and indeed they do.

Holy crap you give no credence to bible scholars yet believe an angle?
:rolling:
Your hilarious sugar! i laugh so hard at your posts. you always make my day. so you hold more credence in a make believe entity in your holy book that was not right until it was copied and removed from the original texts. I would like just one day for you to post one thing that doesn't come from circular reasoning. one day of you posting evidence that does not come from our bible. at least then we could know you have more than one book in your house. I would even accept anything from the DC universe.

Even losers laugh in their defeat.

J.F. Gaul · 04-02-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Even losers laugh in their defeat.

Or, in your case, they ignore all scholarship and continue in their poorly thought out interpretations and dogmas.

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Your own arguments deconstruct your own theories about what are the 4 kingdoms. If the Roman empire is distinct from the Greek empire, then the same logic dictates that the Ottoman and Russian empires are distinct from the Roman one; which damages your previous attempts at shoe horning Biblical prophecy into human history. You are trying to have your cake and eat it as well…ergo, while interpreting the Biblical texts you cannot change methodologies mid-stream.

Secondly, you have not explained the failure of the Roman empire (fourth kingdom) to devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it. per Daniel 7:23. This is what your prophecy describes, and it has never happened in earth history.

Therefore you have failed to demonstrate accurate prophecy.

i see that i will have to open a thread about Revelations which is the unsealing of the book of Daniel. We can debate about this all day but the powers that descended from Rome (especially those powers from the Western Roman Empire) have been in power since the days of Rome.

And you do realize that Daniel does not say anything about a 5th kingdom? He does not seperate the divided powers from the 4th kingdom.....and indeed the European powers have devoured the whole earth (which means causes the whole earth to be in subjection to them). We will see the height of their power when they finish "Globalizing" the world in which they will be the leaders and rulers.

Whatever… You can talk about Revelations till the cows come home, but you appear to be again avoiding direct arguments against your current claims. You cannot remove the Ottoman and Russian empires without destroying your own interpretation getting your fourth kingdom. And again you fail to explain the failure of prophecy of Daniel 7:23 regarding your claim that the Roman empire is the fourth kingdom. Your grand claims for Daniel are built on sifting sand, and you want to build yet another castle…

ChairmanMeow · 04-02-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This is weak and very untrue lets see what Daneil actually says about the Median and Persians:

Daniel told the last king of Babylon "Your kingdom is DIVIDED (a kingdom cannot be divided by a single kingdom) and given to the MEDES AND PERSIANS." The Medes AND Persians. The medes are one arm of the image the Persians the other arm.

Gabriel: " The ram which you saw having TWO HORNS are the kings of MEDIA AND PERSIA." Daniel ch.8 is about the Medes and Persians going to war aganst the Greeks.

Cyrus defeated his Grandfather the king of Media and unified the medes and persians....Medo-Persia. Daniel does not seperate the Medes from the Persians. In fact in the book of Daniel the kings of Medo-Persia were either Medes or Persians.

Cyrus did not 'unite' Media and Persia -- he conquered Media after assuming the title King of Persia. He subjugated the Medes while still holding them in an honorable position. Persia did not exist as an independent state before this conquest -- they had been tributaries and subjects of Media. When the Median Kingdom ended, the Persian (Achaemenid) Empire began. That pretty much defines seperate.

sugarhitman · 04-02-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

i see that i will have to open a thread about Revelations which is the unsealing of the book of Daniel. We can debate about this all day but the powers that descended from Rome (especially those powers from the Western Roman Empire) have been in power since the days of Rome.

And you do realize that Daniel does not say anything about a 5th kingdom? He does not seperate the divided powers from the 4th kingdom.....and indeed the European powers have devoured the whole earth (which means causes the whole earth to be in subjection to them). We will see the height of their power when they finish "Globalizing" the world in which they will be the leaders and rulers.

Whatever… You can talk about Revelations till the cows come home, but you appear to be again avoiding direct arguments against your current claims. You cannot remove the Ottoman and Russian empires without destroying your own interpretation getting your fourth kingdom. And again you fail to explain the failure of prophecy of Daniel 7:23 regarding your claim that the Roman empire is the fourth kingdom. Your grand claims for Daniel are built on sifting sand, and you want to build yet another castle…

The four empires named in Daniel ruled over Isreal

1. Babylon ruled over Israel
2. Medo-Persia ruled over Israel
3. Greeks ruled over Israel
4. The Romans ruled over Israel

USSR did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in Existence.
The Ottomans did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in exsistence
The ten kings and the beast will rule the world and over Israel as well.

Daniel is only concerned with those empires or powers who rules over Israel.

Israel is restored, the Ottoman empire is gone, The USSR is no more, the people who once made up the Roman empire are unifying at this very moment, and they will be hostile to Israel. They will rule over Israel.

I will open a thread on Revelations soon....Revelations is the Unsealed Book of Daniel.

Imnotspecial · 04-02-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

I will open a thread on Revelations soon....Revelations is the Unsealed Book of Daniel.

Please don't. Save yourself the trouble. All prophecies are nothing more than rubbish.
They are just good for entertainment of the fanatics.

Lógos Sokratikós · 04-02-2008, 02:02 PM

I said before today that Daniel was vague, but going through Biblegateway.com I found this piece which is certainly not vague:

Quote:

26 “After this period of sixty-two sets of seven,[f] the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

... and certainly not a TOTAL miss. Nevertheless, there was no flood. That would make it equal in precision to one of those modern day clairvoyants whose predictions are impressive but not 100% "there". What would the Xpian interpretation of the flood mentioned be, Sugarhitman? There was none, and an omniscient God wouldn't have the record of a mere medium, wouldn't you think?

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Whatever… You can talk about Revelations till the cows come home, but you appear to be again avoiding direct arguments against your current claims. You cannot remove the Ottoman and Russian empires without destroying your own interpretation getting your fourth kingdom. And again you fail to explain the failure of prophecy of Daniel 7:23 regarding your claim that the Roman empire is the fourth kingdom. Your grand claims for Daniel are built on sifting sand, and you want to build yet another castle…

The four empires named in Daniel ruled over Isreal

1. Babylon ruled over Israel
2. Medo-Persia ruled over Israel
3. Greeks ruled over Israel
4. The Romans ruled over Israel

USSR did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in Existence.
The Ottomans did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in exsistence
The ten kings and the beast will rule the world and over Israel as well.

Daniel is only concerned with those empires or powers who rules over Israel.

Israel is restored, the Ottoman empire is gone, The USSR is no more, the people who once made up the Roman empire are unifying at this very moment, and they will be hostile to Israel. They will rule over Israel.

(1)The fact that these 2 kingdoms have come and gone, does nothing to help your point.

(2) You keep dodging the Hebrew texts in which God promised Israel their land forever, and that has obviously failed.

(3) I will bold what you previously claimed below regarding the number and qualities of empires, and am keeping the majority of what you wrote for context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics demand evidence, so evidence I will give (even though they will still reject this thus proving the falsity of their petty excuses). The greatest evidence in the Bible is Prophecy which is just remarkebly accurate. This right here disproves false history (and historians) which seek to undermine them and the Bible...because that which has been foretold in the past that comes into being in the present will not allow pseudo-history to disprove it. Rather the present fulfillment destroys these lies and proves that....God exists!!

Lets start with Daniel ch. 2. Nebucahdnezzar has a dream of a statue that was made of different metals in this order.

1. Head of gold
2. Chest and arms of silver
3. Stomach and thighs of brass
4. Legs of iron
5. Toes mixed with iron and clay

Daniel says these metals in chronological order represents 4 kingdoms that would rise upon the earth, he tells Nebby that it starts with his kingdom.

1. Babylon (Daniel tells Nebby that Babylon is the head of gold)
2. Medo-Persia ( Many critics says that there was never a Medo-Persia, but in fact in relevacy to Daniel's prophecy he does not seperate the medes from the persians. In ch 5 on the last day of the Babylonian kingdom a new kingdom arises. "Thy kingdom is DIVIDED and given to the MEDES AND PERSIANS" Medo-Persia is well represented as the chest and TWO ARMS of silver of the image.)
3. Greece (In ch. 8 Daniel foresees a battle between Medo-Persia and the Greeks, with the Greeks conquering Medo-Persia. Greece becomes the third kingdom represented by the stomach and thighs of brass).
4. Rome (Daniel does not out right say it but the Angel Gabriel most certainly gives a hint to who is this fourth kingdom. "And after 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the PEOPLE of the Prince who is to come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY (JERUSELEM) AND THE SANCTUARY....Gabriel tells Daniel the Temple and the city was to under go another destruction by a certain people. The Romans were the only people to have did these things AFTER the cutting off of the Messiah after the restoration of Israel. Jesus lived and died during the Roman Empire)
5. Divided Rome (Daniel says this fourth kingdom would be divided and that they would again establish a brittle unity. Also note that the 4th kingdom is not to be conquered by another people! Until this day these European powers still remains in power, perhaps the longest rule of any people since the beginning of civilization! Also note that critics are famed by their attacks on the book of Daniel due to the accuracy of this remarkable prophet by saying these events were written in 200 B.C. or before the predictions. If that is true than how do you explain the events of the 4th kingdom like its division which didnt take place until 300 something A.D. when Rome split into west and east, and then in 476 A.D. when the west fell into separate powers, exactly what Daniel said would happen. And why is it also that there have been no kingdom to arise after the Roman-European powers which has remained true since Rome rosed! Maybe Daniel was written after 476!

The only kingdom to arise after divided Rome is the kingdom of Christ which Daniel clearly predicts. I have often wondered what Christ meant when He said "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" after studying Daniel I knew....Repent, for the kingdom of God is the next and final kingdom after Rome! This explains why the Apostles even referred to their time as the last days...we have been in the last days since the death and ressurection of Christ.)

The Roman empire was over run by several powers during it’s death throws, and was demolished/conquered. As I and others have pointed out several very large empires have risen since then. Also, the Roman Empire has never fulfilled Daniel 7:23 to devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it.

(4) If you claim these other empires are just a subset of the Roman empire, then logically the Roman empire is just a subset of the Greek empire. Therefore you do not have your proclaimed 4 kingdoms.

I wonder if you will ever choose to engage any of these points in detail?

sugarhitman · 04-02-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The four empires named in Daniel ruled over Isreal

1. Babylon ruled over Israel
2. Medo-Persia ruled over Israel
3. Greeks ruled over Israel
4. The Romans ruled over Israel

USSR did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in Existence.
The Ottomans did not rule over Israel because Israel was not in exsistence
The ten kings and the beast will rule the world and over Israel as well.

Daniel is only concerned with those empires or powers who rules over Israel.

Israel is restored, the Ottoman empire is gone, The USSR is no more, the people who once made up the Roman empire are unifying at this very moment, and they will be hostile to Israel. They will rule over Israel.

(1)The fact that these 2 kingdoms have come and gone, does nothing to help your point.

(2) You keep dodging the Hebrew texts in which God promised Israel their land forever, and that has obviously failed.

(3) I will bold what you previously claimed below regarding the number and qualities of empires, and am keeping the majority of what you wrote for context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics demand evidence, so evidence I will give (even though they will still reject this thus proving the falsity of their petty excuses). The greatest evidence in the Bible is Prophecy which is just remarkebly accurate. This right here disproves false history (and historians) which seek to undermine them and the Bible...because that which has been foretold in the past that comes into being in the present will not allow pseudo-history to disprove it. Rather the present fulfillment destroys these lies and proves that....God exists!!

Lets start with Daniel ch. 2. Nebucahdnezzar has a dream of a statue that was made of different metals in this order.

1. Head of gold
2. Chest and arms of silver
3. Stomach and thighs of brass
4. Legs of iron
5. Toes mixed with iron and clay

Daniel says these metals in chronological order represents 4 kingdoms that would rise upon the earth, he tells Nebby that it starts with his kingdom.

1. Babylon (Daniel tells Nebby that Babylon is the head of gold)
2. Medo-Persia ( Many critics says that there was never a Medo-Persia, but in fact in relevacy to Daniel's prophecy he does not seperate the medes from the persians. In ch 5 on the last day of the Babylonian kingdom a new kingdom arises. "Thy kingdom is DIVIDED and given to the MEDES AND PERSIANS" Medo-Persia is well represented as the chest and TWO ARMS of silver of the image.)
3. Greece (In ch. 8 Daniel foresees a battle between Medo-Persia and the Greeks, with the Greeks conquering Medo-Persia. Greece becomes the third kingdom represented by the stomach and thighs of brass).
4. Rome (Daniel does not out right say it but the Angel Gabriel most certainly gives a hint to who is this fourth kingdom. "And after 62 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the PEOPLE of the Prince who is to come SHALL DESTROY THE CITY (JERUSELEM) AND THE SANCTUARY....Gabriel tells Daniel the Temple and the city was to under go another destruction by a certain people. The Romans were the only people to have did these things AFTER the cutting off of the Messiah after the restoration of Israel. Jesus lived and died during the Roman Empire)
5. Divided Rome (Daniel says this fourth kingdom would be divided and that they would again establish a brittle unity. Also note that the 4th kingdom is not to be conquered by another people! Until this day these European powers still remains in power, perhaps the longest rule of any people since the beginning of civilization! Also note that critics are famed by their attacks on the book of Daniel due to the accuracy of this remarkable prophet by saying these events were written in 200 B.C. or before the predictions. If that is true than how do you explain the events of the 4th kingdom like its division which didnt take place until 300 something A.D. when Rome split into west and east, and then in 476 A.D. when the west fell into separate powers, exactly what Daniel said would happen. And why is it also that there have been no kingdom to arise after the Roman-European powers which has remained true since Rome rosed! Maybe Daniel was written after 476!

The only kingdom to arise after divided Rome is the kingdom of Christ which Daniel clearly predicts. I have often wondered what Christ meant when He said "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" after studying Daniel I knew....Repent, for the kingdom of God is the next and final kingdom after Rome! This explains why the Apostles even referred to their time as the last days...we have been in the last days since the death and ressurection of Christ.)

The Roman empire was over run by several powers during it’s death throws, and was demolished/conquered. As I and others have pointed out several very large empires have risen since then. Also, the Roman Empire has never fulfilled Daniel 7:23 to devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it.

(4) If you claim these other empires are just a subset of the Roman empire, then logically the Roman empire is just a subset of the Greek empire. Therefore you do not have your proclaimed 4 kingdoms.

I wonder if you will ever choose to engage any of these points in detail?

The Roman peoples destroyed the Roman empire...history (Gibbons) has it that Rome fell from internal conflicts.

Ok name me one non european people who have conquered the Roman Empire. What non european nation has ever conquered Western Europe since the collaspe of Rome? I bet you cant find any. And certainly it can be said that the Europeans have indeed "Devoured the whole earth" that is they have subjugated all peoples....they hold most all the nuclear warheads...they control the U.N., and America's (a European power) power reach everywhere. The Europeans have dominated ever since the days of Rome.

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 04-02-2008, 03:33 PM

Sugarhitman, please refer to this other thread of yours which you seem to have retreated from in starting this thread. You have somehow managed to suck at trolling even more than you already suck at making valid arguments. What a bunch of suck!

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04-02-2008, 03:33 PM	#30
WWJD4aKlondikeBar Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 3,076	Sugarhitman, please refer to this other thread of yours which you seem to have retreated from in starting this thread. You have somehow managed to suck at trolling even more than you already suck at making valid arguments. What a bunch of suck!

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