Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 04-28-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
The legendary Vorkosigan has a whole section on parallels between "Mark" and Paul here:

Excursus: Did the Gospel of Mark know the Pauline Corpus?

Quote:

A
Romans 8:31 cites Psalm 118:6 (Mk 12:10-11 Citation of Psalm 118 and warning that the scribes want to kill Jesus)

B
Romans 13:1-7 Obey your government = (Mk 12:13-17 Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's)

C
1 Corinthians 15:12-14 (What if there is no resurrection?) = (Mk 12:18-23 Sadduccees deny resurrection)

C'
1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (What is the resurrection body like?) = (Mk 12:25-27 Like Angels in Heaven)

B'
Romans 13:8-10 (Love is fulfillment of the Law) = (Mk 12:28-34 Commandment to Love)

A
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 cites same passage from Psalm 110 as (Mk 12:35-7 Citation of Psalm 110 and warning to beware of scribes)

JW:
Keep in mind that Paul's theology was that Jesus' history was to be found in the Jewish Bible. "Mark" adopted this theology by showing that what Jesus did was what Elijah/Elisha did. But did "Mark" go beyond this to also find Jesus' history in Paul? Specifically, what Jesus said?

The above excerpt from the Vorkmeister shows the following reMarkable parallels between what "Mark's" Jesus said and what Paul said:

1) The exterior frames have quotes from Psalms. Paul has relatively few quotes from Psalms compared to their number. So what are the odds that at the start and end of a story "Mark's" Jesus refers to the same Psalm quotes that Paul did?

2) The B frames of "Mark's" Jesus' discourse refer to Paul's sayings that are next to each other in Paul.

3) The C frames of "Mark's" Jesus' discourse refer to Paul's sayings that are close to each other in Paul.

4) "Mark's" Jesus has the same order of discourse here as Paul's writings.

Further evidence that Paul, just like the Jewish Bible, was a source for "Mark". Also keep in mind that if "Mark" was also willing to use Josephus as a source:

"Mark's" Fourth Philosophy Source (After Imagination, Paul & Jewish Bible) = Josephus

than he probably was also willing to use Paul as source.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

It is a COMPLETE FALLACY, total absurdity, that the author of gMark used information found in the Pauline writings.

The Markan Jesus is not at all like the Pauline Jesus.

The biography of the Markan Jesus is nowhere in the Pauline writings.

The geographical location of the events of the Markan Jesus are not in the Pauline writings.

No details about the resurrection of the PAULINE Jesus can be found in the short-ending of gMark.

EVEN, the passages from HEBREW scripture found in gMark are NOT found in the Pauline writings.

There is virtually no word for word copying of any passage in the Pauline writings found in gMark but gMark and the Pauline writings show word for word copying of HEBREW scripture.

The teachings of the Markan Jesus are not at all like the teachings received from the Pauline Jesus.

The "failed prophecy" of the MARKAN Jesus is nowhere in the Pauline writings.

A Pauline writers claimed that HE persecuted the FAITH that HE was NOW preaching and that there were people in the FAITH before him.

All the markers or indications to show that the author of gMark was aware of the Pauline writings are COMPLETELY MISSING.

The author of gMark most probably did not use the Pauline writings at all.

Clivedurdle · 04-28-2010, 11:51 AM

Trying to sort out the cladogram here.

Quote:

Cladists use cladograms, diagrams which show ancestral relations between species

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladistics

Would, following Dawkins Ancestors Tale and doing it backwards the following be reasonable?

Mark
Paul
Septaguint
Homer

?

We are looking at a Greek literary tradition set in an exciting foreign milieu, much like Conan Doyle set adventures in the Amazon.

Clivedurdle · 04-28-2010, 11:58 AM

Do we need to get into a Greek mindset to understand this?

Just as they had no problems with Jason wandering around the Black Sea, and telling tales about the river to Hades, and Hercules holding the Earth for Atlas, maybe these Jewish stories of a God on the mountains giving laws on stones, and wondrous battles like David and Goliath should be seen like that - another set of wondrous tales.

Was the Septaguint first published as more stories of other gods?

JoeWallack · 12-23-2010, 07:58 AM

JW:
Just found this post:

The Gospel of Mark and Paul

The Gospel of Mark and Paul at Synoptic L by a Rick Richmond:

Quote:

The similarities between Paul (as I experience him
from his letters), and the Gospel according to Mark.

(We must remember to hold in our mind the realization
that the letters of Paul preceded the text of Mark as
did Paul's life and death).

...

Mark has no birth myth stories and no genealogies
(forbidden by Paul)

In Mark, Peter is presented as a hypocrite his actions
did not agree with what he professed and went counter
to the spirit of Jesus (Paul and Mark share this
view).

There is no reward and no resurrection for people who
are unwilling to identify with the suffering of Jesus
epitomized in his rejection by Jews and finalized in
the cross. Paul intentionally went up to Jerusalem in
the face of warnings that he would be facing great
danger and proceeded identifying with the cross.

The reputed pillars of the church (Peter-James and
John) are persented in Mark in a negative light as
self-seeking and far too concerned about heavenly
rewards.

Key parable of the sower drawn from Paul 1Cor 2:8-10
As it is written, "He scatters abroad, he gives to the
poor; his righteousness endures for ever." 10 He who
supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will
supply and multiply your resources and increase the
harvest of your righteousness. And 1Cor 3:6.

No commendation to preserve the Law of Moses and no
references to the Law of Moses except one response to
the rich young man which is followed up by a request
for total commitment reflecting Paul's values.

No commendation to seek righteousness, conversely
there are several commendations to exercise faith.

...

Gentiles were more receptive and humble in there
response to Jesus in Mark and to Paul in life.

The correct attitude for a disciple of Jesus was the
attitude of a servant. (1Cor 3:5)

The loss of every earthly treasure was a small price
to pay for knowing Jesus (Phil 3:8)

Reference and equal response to paying taxes and Mark
12:14-17 (Romans 13:6-7)

Reference and equal response to the question of the
great commandment of love of neighbor (Mark 12:28-31)
(Rom 13:8-10) Notice that these last two items in Mark
follow the same order of presentation as the same two
items in Romans.

...

The use of parables and codified expressions to avoid
interference by outsiders (primarily Jewish
opposition). (see 1Cor 2:7-9)

A dramatic split with Jews (Pharisees and scribes0
from Jerusalem that dined with Jesus in a setting
involving ritual before eating loaves(Gal 2:12-15)

The mark of a real apostle is his ability to break and
distribute the spiritual bread ( preaching that
demonstrates spirit and power) not to execute the
rituals of tradition.

To the Jew first and to the "Greek" and in the same
fashion not to a lesser degree with respect to
gentiles.

The presence of spies among his associates
(2Cor.11:26) Jewish spies (Gal:4)

JW:
Most of the parallels have already been identified in this Thread and the author gives some parallels that are not so good. The end of the post gives evidence for "Mark" being a Greek Tragedy which I will place in the

Wrestling With Greco Tragedy. Reversal From Behind. Is "Mark" Greek Tragedy? Thread. Predictably in a Thread that often has endless fascination with very bad theories these mainstream Christian Bible scholars ignore the very good theories here that Paul was a source for "Mark" and "Mark" is Greek Tragedy.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

aa5874 · 12-23-2010, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
Just found this post:

The Gospel of Mark and Paul

The Gospel of Mark and Paul at Synoptic L by a Rick Richmond:

Quote:

The similarities between Paul (as I experience him
from his letters), and the Gospel according to Mark.

(We must remember to hold in our mind the realization
that the letters of Paul preceded the text of Mark as
did Paul's life and death).

...

Mark has no birth myth stories and no genealogies
(forbidden by Paul)

In Mark, Peter is presented as a hypocrite his actions
did not agree with what he professed and went counter
to the spirit of Jesus (Paul and Mark share this
view).

There is no reward and no resurrection for people who
are unwilling to identify with the suffering of Jesus
epitomized in his rejection by Jews and finalized in
the cross. Paul intentionally went up to Jerusalem in
the face of warnings that he would be facing great
danger and proceeded identifying with the cross.

The reputed pillars of the church (Peter-James and
John) are persented in Mark in a negative light as
self-seeking and far too concerned about heavenly
rewards.

Key parable of the sower drawn from Paul 1Cor 2:8-10
As it is written, "He scatters abroad, he gives to the
poor; his righteousness endures for ever." 10 He who
supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will
supply and multiply your resources and increase the
harvest of your righteousness. And 1Cor 3:6.

No commendation to preserve the Law of Moses and no
references to the Law of Moses except one response to
the rich young man which is followed up by a request
for total commitment reflecting Paul's values.

No commendation to seek righteousness, conversely
there are several commendations to exercise faith.

...

Gentiles were more receptive and humble in there
response to Jesus in Mark and to Paul in life.

The correct attitude for a disciple of Jesus was the
attitude of a servant. (1Cor 3:5)

The loss of every earthly treasure was a small price
to pay for knowing Jesus (Phil 3:8)

Reference and equal response to paying taxes and Mark
12:14-17 (Romans 13:6-7)

Reference and equal response to the question of the
great commandment of love of neighbor (Mark 12:28-31)
(Rom 13:8-10) Notice that these last two items in Mark
follow the same order of presentation as the same two
items in Romans.

...

The use of parables and codified expressions to avoid
interference by outsiders (primarily Jewish
opposition). (see 1Cor 2:7-9)

A dramatic split with Jews (Pharisees and scribes0
from Jerusalem that dined with Jesus in a setting
involving ritual before eating loaves(Gal 2:12-15)

The mark of a real apostle is his ability to break and
distribute the spiritual bread ( preaching that
demonstrates spirit and power) not to execute the
rituals of tradition.

To the Jew first and to the "Greek" and in the same
fashion not to a lesser degree with respect to
gentiles.

The presence of spies among his associates
(2Cor.11:26) Jewish spies (Gal:4)

JW:
Most of the parallels have already been identified in this Thread and the author gives some parallels that are not so good. The end of the post gives evidence for "Mark" being a Greek Tragedy which I will place in the

Wrestling With Greco Tragedy. Reversal From Behind. Is "Mark" Greek Tragedy? Thread. Predictably in a Thread that often has endless fascination with very bad theories these mainstream Christian Bible scholars ignore the very good theories here that Paul was a source for "Mark" and "Mark" is Greek Tragedy.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

If one uses the argument that the author of gMatthew used gMark since gMatthew ACTUALLY contains virtually all the passages and stories found in gMark and sometimes word for word, then certainly the very arguments that seems to show that gMatthew used gMark CANNOT be used to show that gMark used the Pauline writings.

No-one could ever argue that the birth narrative in gMatthew is from gMark yet people here are claiming gMark USED the PAULINE writings when NOT ONE single narrative found in gMark is in the Pauline writings.

There is SIMPLY nothing in gMark that is anywhere close to the Pauline writings. The author of gMark, quite the opposite of "Paul", gives ZERO significance to the resurrection with respect to the SALVATION of Mankind.

The MARKAN Jesus did NOT teach his disciples anything about SALVATION through the resurrection.

And, The very idea that there may be a document "Q" which was used by the authors of gMatthew and gLuke demonstrates that virtually ALL the information COMMON to gMatthew, gMark and gLuke or common to gMatthew and gLuke did NOT ever come from the Pauline writings.

There are NO SAYINGS of Jesus in the Pauline writings.

There are ZERO geographical details for ANYTHING about Jesus. The author of Mark did NOT use the Pauline writings to write that Jesus lived in Nazareth and used SPIT to heal blindness.

"Paul" seemed ONLY to be AWARE of Jesus AFTER the resurrection.

The author of gMark seemed ONLY to be AWARE of Jesus BEFORE the resurrection.

It is a complete fallacy that the author of gMark used the Pauline writings.

It is more like that "Paul" used the Gospels and an apologetic source did write that "Paul" was AWARE of gLuke.

"Church History" 3.4.8

Quote:

8. And they say that Paul meant to refer to Luke's Gospel wherever, as if speaking of some gospel of his own, he used the words, "according to my Gospel."...

The NT is REMARKABLE SIMPLE to follow. The stories of "PAUL" is that he was converted AFTER Jesus was RAISED from the dead and ASCENDED to heaven, even "PAUL" wrote about the sequence. There is NO other chronology for "Paul".

Galatians 1

Quote:

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up F2 to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ.

23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed[/u]. .

The Jesus story was KNOWN even before "PAUL" was KNOWN by face according to the Pauline writer. There is NO other story that shows "Paul" started the faith.

spamandham · 12-23-2010, 11:16 PM

How do you determine a causal relationship?

If we see similarities between Paul and Mark, there are 4 possibilities:

1. Mark was familiar with Paul
2. Paul was familiar with Mark
3. Paul and Mark were both familiar with other related sources
4. The similar ideas in Paul and Mark were common in the milieu

JoeWallack · 12-24-2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

How do you determine a causal relationship?

JW:
Criteria.

I've thrown out a few times on these unholy Boards:

Quote:

Over at Neil Godfree's superior Vridar:

Clark’s criteria for valid parallels

Neal discusses criteria for valid parallels:

Quote:

1. Similarity in content

Too vague to stand on its own as a criterion of authorial intention for passages to be read in parallel. May complement other similarities.

2. Similarity in language

Lexical repetitions or synonyms. Rare words are more likely to be significant. Consider synonyms, too. Are compound forms forms apparently used as intentional parallels to their original forms?

3. Literary form

May not stand on its own but can complement other similarities. Healings of paralytics by Peter (Acts 3:1-10) and Paul (14:8-10) share a common literary form — both contain information about the place, action of the man, word of healing, gesture of healing, immediate occurrence of healing, demonstration of healing, and effect on the crowd (from Lüdemann, Early Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk), 53).

Sometimes better to speak of distinct literary motifs in common: example, the double visions in each of the conversions of Saul (9:1-19) and Peter (10:1-48).

4. Sequence

The more extensive a sequence is the stronger it is as an indicator of intentional parallelism. Sequences may not always be in the same strict order, however.

5. Structure

Larger parallel structures, even though not always perfectly matched, are another strong indication of an intent to create a double pattern. Examples: Talbert’s 32 parallels of content and sequence between the Gospel of Luke and Acts; between Acts 1-12 and Acts 13-28. The parallel structures suggest an intention to highlight a theme of continuity between Jesus and his disciples, and between the apostles and Paul.

6. Theme

Another complementary criterion that carries weight when in conjunction with other criteria. Perhaps also an essential criterion.

Also note: Disruption of the text

If the flow of the text is disrupted, or if a pericope is awkward internally, where a parallel appears, this is a strong indicator that the parallel was an important feature in the author’s mind.

We should be long on evidence and short on conclusions (I have faith that that is what spin is trying to tell you guys).

These criteria should be modified of course, depending on facts and circumstances. I would add a general criteria to the above of Prominence. How prominent was the potential source? Here specifically Paul would be the only known potential Christian source for "Mark" with scope so prominence would be relatively high. Thus there is a lower standard for the other criteria.

Quote:

If we see similarities between Paul and Mark, there are 4 possibilities:

1. Mark was familiar with Paul
2. Paul was familiar with Mark
3. Paul and Mark were both familiar with other related sources
4. The similar ideas in Paul and Mark were common in the milieu

JW:
True. The combination of age and source problems makes all of the above possible. Even mm's fuhcockedtah theory is possible (I didn't say that). As always, the only thing we can be sure of is that historical witness did not witness the impossible and as Skeptics we are on a Mission from God to convince believers of that fact. But sound criteria evaluates conclusions relative to each other qualified by being based on the existing evidence.

Joseph

FAITH, n.
Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

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04-28-2010, 11:58 AM	#53
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Do we need to get into a Greek mindset to understand this? Just as they had no problems with Jason wandering around the Black Sea, and telling tales about the river to Hades, and Hercules holding the Earth for Atlas, maybe these Jewish stories of a God on the mountains giving laws on stones, and wondrous battles like David and Goliath should be seen like that - another set of wondrous tales. Was the Septaguint first published as more stories of other gods?

12-23-2010, 11:16 PM	#56
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	How do you determine a causal relationship? If we see similarities between Paul and Mark, there are 4 possibilities: 1. Mark was familiar with Paul 2. Paul was familiar with Mark 3. Paul and Mark were both familiar with other related sources 4. The similar ideas in Paul and Mark were common in the milieu

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