Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 09:13 AM

'Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God — or rather are known by God — how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.' Gal 4:8-11 NIV

Do people observe special days precisely because they are weak and miserable?

aeebee50 · 12-25-2012, 09:52 AM

No, strong and happy. Grand kids have a way of doing that.

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

No, strong and happy. Grand kids have a way of doing that.

Goats?

mountainman · 12-25-2012, 05:56 PM

The new and strange testament appears to use a pathetic mode of persuasion in its rhetoric. Why was it ever so successful?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aristotle's Three Modes of Persuasion in Rhetoric

Ethos - Appeal to the audience's sense of honesty and/or authority

Pathos - Appeal to the audience's sense of emotions

Logos - Appeal to the audience's sense of logic

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The new and strange testament appears to use a pathetic mode of persuasion in its rhetoric. Why was it ever so successful?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aristotle's Three Modes of Persuasion in Rhetoric

Ethos - Appeal to the audience's sense of honesty and/or authority

Pathos - Appeal to the audience's sense of emotions

Logos - Appeal to the audience's sense of logic

Excellent. I was wondering when someone would bring this up. Not for its own sake, but because it is neat inversion of the mental process that surely brings people to this particular forum. Not that it is untrue in its proper context; it certainly is true, but it does not have the application here that the poster presumably thinks it has.

Logos is of course ultimate power, true or false. If is it true Logos, it persists. So phlogiston is no more; but there are more threads about the confounded Galilean than you can shake a stick at. So the very fact that you are reading this, two millennia on, demonstrates that there can hardly be a rhetorical sense of Logos here.

Now what does Logos do, in the context of the Bible? It compels intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, as saviour. The consequence of that is challenge to the will, because a change of personal attitudes and habits is found necessary in response to the Logos. This produces emotions, usually mixed, of the promise of benefit, but also of a loss of autonomy. The emotions then are liable to produce a tension due to decision about future action. The self then either retains its integrity, or it does not. One does not need an apostle to produce this dynamic, but if an outside agent resonates with what one already knows to be true, then the dissonance is increased and may be brought to a decisive climax. There is no possibility of being deceived here. It is the self that is in complete control.

So the Galatians were not being harangued by a demagogue, but merely being reminded of their own mental progression of the recent past. All they were being asked to do was to make their words and their actions consistent. To be 'crunchy', to make up their minds. They had complete freedom to walk away, if that is what they wanted.

So do people observe special days precisely because they are weak and miserable? Is there any sign that those who reject weak and miserable principles are subjected to pressure by those afraid of their strength?

Toto · 12-25-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

....

Now what does Logos do, in the context of the Bible? It compels intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, as saviour.

No it doesn't.

Quote:

The consequence of that is challenge to the will, because a change of personal attitudes and habits is found necessary in response to the Logos. This produces emotions, usually mixed, of the promise of benefit, but also of a loss of autonomy. The emotions then are liable to produce a tension due to decision about future action. The self then either retains its integrity, or it does not. One does not need an apostle to produce this dynamic, but if an outside agent resonates with what one already knows to be true, then the dissonance is increased and may be brought to a decisive climax. There is no possibility of being deceived here. It is the self that is in complete control.

This all happens in your mind, where there is a possibility of being deceived.

Quote:

So the Galatians were not being harangued by a demagogue, but merely being reminded of their own mental progression of the recent past. All they were being asked to do was to make their words and their actions consistent. To be 'crunchy', to make up their minds. They had complete freedom to walk away, if that is what they wanted.

So do people observe special days precisely because they are weak and miserable? Is there any sign that those who reject weak and miserable principles are subjected to pressure by those afraid of their strength?

People observe special days because that is part of our culture, how humans interact with each other. You can say that humans are weak and miserable, because we are in fact a social animal unable to survive on our own, and need these messy, contradictory social relations.

But I think you are fishing around for something else.

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

....

Now what does Logos do, in the context of the Bible? It compels intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, as saviour.

No it doesn't.

The simple fact is that it does. There are university colleges named after Bible personnel. Statues of Cristo Rei dominating cities. And so on, and so on.

Quote:

The consequence of that is challenge to the will, because a change of personal attitudes and habits is found necessary in response to the Logos. This produces emotions, usually mixed, of the promise of benefit, but also of a loss of autonomy. The emotions then are liable to produce a tension due to decision about future action. The self then either retains its integrity, or it does not. One does not need an apostle to produce this dynamic, but if an outside agent resonates with what one already knows to be true, then the dissonance is increased and may be brought to a decisive climax. There is no possibility of being deceived here. It is the self that is in complete control.

Quote:

This all happens in your mind, where there is a possibility of being deceived.

Not by another, which is mountainman's point.

Quote:

So the Galatians were not being harangued by a demagogue, but merely being reminded of their own mental progression of the recent past. All they were being asked to do was to make their words and their actions consistent. To be 'crunchy', to make up their minds. They had complete freedom to walk away, if that is what they wanted.

So do people observe special days precisely because they are weak and miserable? Is there any sign that those who reject weak and miserable principles are subjected to pressure by those afraid of their strength?

Quote:

People observe special days because that is part of our culture

Like prayers in public schools, and theistic coinage. Wow. Does this post mark the capitulation and formal close of the humanist movement?

Quote:

we are in fact a social animal unable to survive on our own

As I told you.

Quote:

and need these messy, contradictory social relations.

You won't get round me that way. That's precisely what we don't need.

Maybe it's crooks who want 'Christmas', and weak, miserable practices. Crooks, who are destroying societies, maybe even the planet's viability. Maybe crooks make hypocrites of us all. Almost all.

Perhaps what we really mean is that 'Christmas' alleviates the mind from the challenge of the Bible by making 'everyone', now including atheists, into 'Christians'. Any who differ are treated as awkward. Does that fit the facts?

Toto · 12-25-2012, 08:20 PM

Nothing compels the intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

sotto voce · 12-25-2012, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Nothing compels the intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

http://www.jesus.cam.ac.uk/
http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/
http://itthing.com/wp-content/upload...dentor-rio.jpg

aeebee50 · 12-26-2012, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

No, strong and happy. Grand kids have a way of doing that.

Goats?

No, children. I do have friends who do not have children, but they enjoy and sell goats.

12-25-2012, 09:13 AM	#1
sotto voce Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: UK Posts: 3,057	Weak and miserable? 'Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God — or rather are known by God — how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.' Gal 4:8-11 NIV Do people observe special days precisely because they are weak and miserable?

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12-25-2012, 09:52 AM	#2
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	No, strong and happy. Grand kids have a way of doing that.

12-25-2012, 08:20 PM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Nothing compels the intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

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