aa5874

Well, you are ASSUMING YOUR GOD exists and ASSUMING that Jesus was RAISED from the dead.

I have READ enough MYTHOLOGY so I can EASILY RECOGNIZE MYTHS. I know some of the MYTH names like ZEUS, JESUS, PETER, ROMULUS.....

I need SOLID and CREDIBLE evidence FIRST since I do not want my BELIEFS about GODS to DUMPED in the DUSTBIN of MYTHOLOGY as happened to those who BELIEVED in ZEUS.

You see the RESURRECTED Jesus yet? KEEP YOU EYES OPEN. Tell me if you do.

Transient

As I said, if we are to look at these things logically then we need to keep an open mind. Personally I do not mind which way it turns out as I cannot change what is, so I try to look at things objectively with as little bias as possible.
Since we cannot prove that there is no god, it is best to keep it in there as a possibility.
I realize that there are those that just could not accept such a possibility even if it were true - I am not one of them.
The use of the term "your god" is unwarranted and shows the depth of emotion invested here. Investigations are best done with less emotion invested otherwise conclusions can be skewed somewhat.

jgreen44

That depends upon one's point of view. There are plenty of contradictions between the Pauline epistles and the gospels but there are also plenty of similarities. So one or a combination of three things is going on:

1) The Pauline Epistles allude to or restate teachings found in the gospels
2) The gospels allude to or restate teachings found in the Pauline epistles
3) Both the Pauline Epistles and the gospels are working from a common and earlier teaching tradition.

Godwithus

Can you giver us an example of these said contradictions?

aa5874

Well using logics, I have considered Romulus and Remus and Achilles as MYTHS I would have to be illogical to consider the NT as history when it logically follows the stories of MYTHS.

Well, I don't know what you can or cannot prove. I just consider that the God of the Jews and his Son Jesus as stated in the Bible are MYTHS. I did the same thing for Romulus and Remus and the MYTH JESUS was a DIRECT replacement for ALL the MYTHS of Antiquity in the WHOLE Roman Empire.

Well, I am not like you then. You seem to accept possibilities BEFORE YOU EVEN HAVE any Credible historical evidence.

Perhaps the people who believed in ZEUS were just like you. It was POSSIBLE, they BELIEVED, that ZEUS did exist, they had an OPEN MIND.

What happened to their open-mind?

Don't you BELIEVE in a SPECIFIC GOD who had a SON who was God INCARNATE named Jesus crucified and RESURRECTED under Pilate? Is not that YOUR GOD and possibly the ONLY true God to YOUR OPEN MIND?

Well, I consider YOUR GOD and his SON as MYTHS like Romulus and Remus and ACHILLES.

After all in order for Jesus to have been worshiped as a God in the Roman Empire, the Roman Emperor mythologized the Greek/Roman Gods of those who had OPEN MINDS in the 4th century.

SERAPIS was probably just about to answer a prayer when Constantine made him into a MYTH.

But, back to the OP.

You must know that there was a tradition that "Paul" was aware of gLuke. According to the Church historian Eusebius, there was a TRADITION that "PAUL" was alive and knew of gLuke. "Paul" called gLuke "my gospel."

But, gLuke is deduced to have been written AFTER the Fall of the Temple so "Paul" was alive AFTER the Fall of the Temple.

"Paul" was AFTER the Synoptics.

"Church History" 3.4.8

jgreen44

The contradictions are well known. Here are the similarities...

I got this info from a Jehovah's Witness so pardon the assumptions that Paul is referencing Jesus...

ROMANS

At Romans 8:32 Paul says "He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all..."

This is in part a reference to Jesus own words at John 3:16 which say "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son..."

.

Romans 8:35 Paul says "Who will separate us from the love of the Christ?

Jesus words at John 15:10 were "If you observe my commandments then you will remain in my love..."

.

Paul says that Jesus "...is sitting at the right hand of God..." at Romans 8:34

(Paul also makes reference to this in many of his other letters Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 8:1, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 12:2, and this is also mentioned by other disciples at Acts 2:34, Acts 7:56, 1 Peter 3:22)

This concept is actually a reference to Psalm 110:1

However it was JESUS who first referenced that scripture and applied it to himself, and he did so on a couple of occasions. Mark 12:36, Matthew 22:43, Luke 20:42

.

Romans 9:32 Paul writes "They stumbled on the 'Stone of Stumbling'".

This was in reference to Jesus words at Luke 20:17-18 in which Jesus said “‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

Jesus of course was here applying several scriptures from the Hebrew Bible to himself, Isaiah 8:14-15, Isaiah 28:16, Psalm 118:22, and several others.

.

1 CORINTHIANS

1 Cor 1:3 Paul writes "Paul was not impaled for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?"

This is in reference to the fact that Jesus was put to death for us, not Paul, and that Jesus said that Christians are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the name of Paul.

.

1 Corinthians 1:18-21 "For it is written: I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual men I will shove aside. .... the world through its wisdom did not get to know God"

Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."

...plus many other references...

2 CORINTHIANS

2 Corinthians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Jesus said at John 20:17 "I am ascending to my Father, and to your Father, to my God and your God."

.

2 Corinthians 1:5 "For just as the sufferings for the Christ abound in us, so the comfort we get also abounds through the Christ."

Jesus said "Bare in mind the word I said to you that a slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also." (John 15:20)

Thats just the first chapter, there are many others in that letter.

GALATIANS

Galatians 2:20 "I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me. Indeed, the life that I now live in flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God, who loved me and handed himself over for me."

Matthew 16:24-25 “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me. For whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."

.

Galatians 3:24 "Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ..."

Jesus words at Matthew 5:17 “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill."

EPHESIANS

Ephesians 4:1-2 "I ... entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love"

This "calling" is the calling to follow Jesus (Matthew 11:29) "Come to me, all YOU who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh YOU. Take my yoke upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light.”

.

Ephesians 5:2 "go on walking in love, just as the Christ also loved YOU"

John 13:34 "I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU"

PHILIPPIANS

Philippians 3:20 "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ"

John 18:36 "Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

COLOSSIANS

Colossians 2:6-7 "Therefore, as YOU have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in union with him"

John 17:20-21 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us”

.

Colossians 3:13 "Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely ... Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also."

Matthew 6:14 “For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU"

.

Colossians 3:23 "Whatever YOU are doing, work at it whole-souled as to Jehovah, and not to men"

Luke 10:27 "“‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind"

But, oddly enough, Paul never credits Jesus with any of these teachings.

Godwithus

Didnt you say "contradictions"? Those are not contradictions. And yes, Yeshua teachings are from the OT, with some minor changes, like the Law concerning Adultery, Stoning and a few others.

jgreen44

The top two contradicitons....

1) Just as man is not God but only in the "likeness" of God, Paul's Jesus is not a man but only in the "likeness" of a man.

Romans 8:3

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Phillippians 2

7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

2) Paul's Jesus was not even named "Jesus" until after he was dead.

Phillippians 2

8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Godwithus

What? Those are not contradictions.


John 4.



No contradiction between this and Paul's writings.

spin

Now that we've played the contradiction game ("Note these astounding disagreements!" "They're nothing of the sort, so there!" And hopefully without the next few turns of "yes, they are!"/"no, they're not!"), where were we?.... Ah, yes,... trying to date things....