Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Godwithus · 11-17-2010, 06:23 PM

Question. If the NT were not written by the original authors....but by the Greek churches who adopted Replacement Theology in the 1st, or 2nd centuries, why are there pro-Israel views in the NT?

Quote:

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew....I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Romans 11

Here Paul says that in spite of the Jews hostility to the Gospel, they have not been rejected by God, they remain the Elect Nation destined for Salvation. Its hard for me to believe that the Church Fathers or the Roman Catholics would have wrote that.

Quote:

You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 4.

I seriously doubt they would have wrote that.

Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) - Claimed God’s covenant with Israel was no longer valid and that the Gentiles had replaced the Jews. If Replacement Theory was popular within the Church during this time..then indeed the pro-Israel NT writings could not have been written by the Church Fathers, and must be authored earlier than the times of Justin Martyr.

Indeed Paul Epistles certainly cant predate the Gospel right?

Toto · 11-17-2010, 07:16 PM

What exactly do you mean by "earlier date?"

Justin Martyr wrote around 150, so this would not require that the gospels be especially early. Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

Godwithus · 11-17-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What exactly do you mean by "earlier date?"

Justin Martyr wrote around 150, so this would not require that the gospels be especially early. Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

Quote:

Justin Martyr wrote around 150, so this would not require that the gospels be especially early

It would mean that they are earlier right? And what about the pro-Israel views in the Texts?Surely a Greek dominated Church wouldnt have written them?

Quote:

Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it

Then that would mean you believe the Gospel was written only a few years after the life of Christ. At least 4 of Paul's Epistles are believed by Scholars to have been written about 20 years after Christ.

spin · 11-17-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

It would mean that they are earlier right? And what about the pro-Israel views in the Texts?Surely a Greek dominated Church wouldnt have written them?

Not entering your unclear assumed dating of things yet, I think your understanding of the references to Israel is not correct. God is not in error. If he says that Israel is his chosen people, then you have to accept that is the starting position that the christian writers have to work around. They are not pro-Israel in the sense of speaking in favor of the Jews, but are pro-"coherent god".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Quote:

Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it

Then that would mean you believe the Gospel was written only a few years after the life of Christ. At least 4 of Paul's Epistles are believed by Scholars to have been written about 20 years after Christ.

When were the gospels written? The earliest we know of was written after the fall of Jerusalem. The important issue to decide is how long after the fall of the city were they written. Perhaps you could start there.

spin

Transient · 11-17-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

It would mean that they are earlier right? And what about the pro-Israel views in the Texts?Surely a Greek dominated Church wouldnt have written them?

Not entering your unclear assumed dating of things yet, I think your understanding of the references to Israel is not correct. God is not in error. If he says that Israel is his chosen people, then you have to accept that is the starting position that the christian writers have to work around. They are not pro-Israel in the sense of speaking in favor of the Jews, but are pro-"coherent god".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Then that would mean you believe the Gospel was written only a few years after the life of Christ. At least 4 of Paul's Epistles are believed by Scholars to have been written about 20 years after Christ.

When were the gospels written? The earliest we know of was written after the fall of Jerusalem. The important issue to decide is how long after the fall of the city were they written. Perhaps you could start there.

spin

What evidence is there that the gospels were written after the fall of Jerusalem and not before?

Godwithus · 11-17-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

It would mean that they are earlier right? And what about the pro-Israel views in the Texts?Surely a Greek dominated Church wouldnt have written them?

Not entering your unclear assumed dating of things yet, I think your understanding of the references to Israel is not correct. God is not in error. If he says that Israel is his chosen people, then you have to accept that is the starting position that the christian writers have to work around. They are not pro-Israel in the sense of speaking in favor of the Jews, but are pro-"coherent god".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Then that would mean you believe the Gospel was written only a few years after the life of Christ. At least 4 of Paul's Epistles are believed by Scholars to have been written about 20 years after Christ.

When were the gospels written? The earliest we know of was written after the fall of Jerusalem. The important issue to decide is how long after the fall of the city were they written. Perhaps you could start there.

spin

Quote:

Not entering your unclear assumed dating of things yet, I think your understanding of the references to Israel is not correct. God is not in error. If he says that Israel is his chosen people, then you have to accept that is the starting position that the christian writers have to work around. They are not pro-Israel in the sense of speaking in favor of the Jews, but are pro-"coherent god".

But they wrote that Israel is not the Chosen people in their writings. If they were not afraid to make that Church doctrine..what makes you think if they authored the Biblical Texts, they would write that Israel is the chosen people?

I think this shows that the NT was written before Replacement Theology became Church doctrine..and that would give it a much earlier date then Scholars are willing to admit.

Sheshbazzar · 11-17-2010, 07:59 PM

Do they ever take any time out to think it through?

Their problem is not about when the tales were written.
Even if it were to be conclusively proven that the Jebus story writing had began way back in 34 AD, The Bible's tall tales still wouldn't be one whit more factual.

The movie 'Evan Almighty' was released in 2007, does that mean that gigantic ark actually landed in front of the White House in 2007?
Hey its right there in living color, and with real historical people! so that means it must have happened.

All that is really in any of these old Bible stories, from the tale of Adam and Eve onward, are entertaining tall tales to be told around the campfire, teach children the prevailing ethics of their society, and a convenient tool often employed to manipulate the masses.
Just the ancient and primitive version of mass media, One that was periodically placed under the control of a prevailing government, and used for public political/religious indoctrination purposes.

Godwithus · 11-17-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Do they ever take any time out to think it through?

Their problem is not about when the tales were written.
Even if it were to be conclusively proven that the Jebus story writing had began way back in 34 AD, The Bible's tall tales still wouldn't be one whit more factual.

The movie 'Evan Almighty' was released in 2007, does that mean that gigantic ark actually landed in front of the White House in 2007?
Hey its right there in living color, and with real historical people! so that means it must have happened.

All that is really in any of these old Bible stories, from the tale of Adam and Eve onward, are entertaining tall tales to be told around the campfire, teach children the prevailing ethics of their society, and a convenient tool to manipulate the masses.
Just the ancient and primitive version of mass media, One that was periodically placed under the control of a prevailing government, and used for public political/religious indoctrination purposes.

My Jewish brother, how are you?

The current discussion is not about whether the writings are myths. What is igging me is, how can pro-Israel sentiment find its way into the texts, if written by the antiIsrael Church, which was so beginning with Ignatius of Antioch (ca 50-117 AD).

Toto · 11-17-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godwithus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What exactly do you mean by "earlier date?"

Justin Martyr wrote around 150, so this would not require that the gospels be especially early. Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

It would mean that they are earlier right?

So maybe they were written around 149 CE? :huh:

Quote:

And what about the pro-Israel views in the Texts? Surely a Greek dominated Church wouldnt have written them?

Things are more complicated that a simple Jewish vs Greek split. For instance, Marcion was a dominant figure in Christianity in the first half of the second century (more or less). He rejected the Jewish God as an inferior god. But he also accepted the validity of Jewish scripture for the Jews.

Some modern scholars see at least some of the pro-Jewish statements in the NT as anti-Marcionite.

Quote:

Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it

Then that would mean you believe the Gospel was written only a few years after the life of Christ.

No, I think that both the epistles and the gospels were written after 70 CE, at least in their final form.

Quote:

At least 4 of Paul's Epistles are believed by Scholars to have been written about 20 years after Christ.

If you look into the basis for their opinion, it is based primarily on accepting the story in Acts as history, but Acts appears to be more historical fiction than reliable history.

show_no_mercy · 11-17-2010, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark 12:1-9

1 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.

6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others

The owner is YHWH. The tenants are the Jews. The vineyard is Israel. The prophets are the servants coming to collect. The son is... well, that one is pretty obvious. The "others" at the end are the non-Jews/Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Doesn't get anymore "Replacement Theology" than that.

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11-17-2010, 07:16 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What exactly do you mean by "earlier date?" Justin Martyr wrote around 150, so this would not require that the gospels be especially early. Paul's epistles are generally believed to predate the gospels, but I wouldn't want to bet on it.

11-17-2010, 07:59 PM	#7
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Do they ever take any time out to think it through? Their problem is not about when the tales were written. Even if it were to be conclusively proven that the Jebus story writing had began way back in 34 AD, The Bible's tall tales still wouldn't be one whit more factual. The movie 'Evan Almighty' was released in 2007, does that mean that gigantic ark actually landed in front of the White House in 2007? Hey its right there in living color, and with real historical people! so that means it must have happened. All that is really in any of these old Bible stories, from the tale of Adam and Eve onward, are entertaining tall tales to be told around the campfire, teach children the prevailing ethics of their society, and a convenient tool often employed to manipulate the masses. Just the ancient and primitive version of mass media, One that was periodically placed under the control of a prevailing government, and used for public political/religious indoctrination purposes.

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