Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 11-29-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastula

I'd bet you'd be a good tea leaf reader, if it's not considered sorcery. .

Look at the quotation again:

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

This is not humility as it is commonly understood.

sharon45 · 11-29-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

There is no humility in Christ. How could there be? What does he have to be humble about? But nor is there any of the craven pride of the little man. No, Christ's pride is the pride of the perfect, the absolute, the all consuming mystic who cries: "I and the Father are One!"

Even though it just remains a claim since he doesn't provide anything credible to support it.

sharon45 · 11-29-2006, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

See my post to Electrogod on that matter.

As I had said even earlier that your examples already fit that of a book.

sharon45 · 11-29-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

That's easy to say but I'm still looking for the evidence........

I somehow don't think I'm going to get any from you.

Now why would you think this? I do use quotes from the bible quite a lot so do you think there is something different somehow about your specific case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

I just did a word search on the word "humble"

Jesus didn't say it......at least not in the King James Version. Are you using a different translation?

Matthew 11:28-30 New American Standard Bible
28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Many versions I have found say humble here.

Matthew 11:28-30 New International Reader's Version
28 "Come to me, all of you who are tired and are carrying heavy loads. I will give you rest.
29 Become my servants and learn from me. I am gentle and free of pride. You will find rest for your souls.
30 Serving me is easy, and my load is light."

Free of pride works just as well since he doesn't really demonstrate this either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

Thanks Blastula for finding this.

I don't see anything wrong with Jesus saying this since it is true. I don't see how He was saying it in order to brag about it (thus nullifying the statement). It reads like a simple statement of fact and being the Creator incarnate He would be in a position to know.

So how is this true? If there aren't really enough examples to support such a case, it is bragging. Please support how jesus really is the "Creator incarnate" as you put it. I already know that there are many other unsupported claims in the NT as to him being the word incarnate, but none really show this. Even if there were, where is their actual scriptural backing in the OT?

sharon45 · 11-29-2006, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Thank you for posting that quotation, Blastula. It really does force us to discuss the paradox of humility and pride in this man. I would maintain that, just as he has none of the pride of the little man, he has none of the humility of the little man. His humility is born of the depths of his inner self-knowing, in the calm beauty of his selfhood. But there is nothing passive or weak about this kind of humility. It is the humility of a calm sea that can at any moment rise and sink everything on its surface.

Right, as you would maintain.

Omegasevx · 11-29-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Only a depraved moralism would find in this grounds for shame or humiliation.

Who said anything about shame and humiliation? He was a bastard, and he was born in a barn. To be humble of those facts seems reasonable.

Quote:

That he was a mystic is pretty much the consensus view. See Marcus Borg, for example.

I thought the consensus among Christians was that Jesus was the son of God? Oh that's right, Christian consensus is an oxymoron.

Quote:

I ain't no trinitarian.

I didn't say you were...stick to what I actually post please. I asked you to explain how two people could be one person. You wrote:

Quote:

No, Christ's pride is the pride of the perfect, the absolute, the all consuming mystic who cries: "I and the Father are One!"

and now I expect you to explain how that is possible.

ksen · 11-30-2006, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omegasevx

He was a bastard child born in a barn for crying out loud!

That's true, and it was a charge often thrown in His face by the Pharisees.

ksen · 11-30-2006, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

Now why would you think this? I do use quotes from the bible quite a lot so do you think there is something different somehow about your specific case?

During the short time we've spoken together you haven't used a single scripture quote until last night when you finally used Gen 4:6-7 which I appreciated.

Quote:

Matthew 11:28-30 New American Standard Bible
28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Many versions I have found say humble here.

Matthew 11:28-30 New International Reader's Version
28 "Come to me, all of you who are tired and are carrying heavy loads. I will give you rest.
29 Become my servants and learn from me. I am gentle and free of pride. You will find rest for your souls.
30 Serving me is easy, and my load is light."

Thanks Sharon45 for posting those.

I still don't see how His saying that he's lowly in heart as the KJV translates it or humble in heart from the NASB means that He's really not.

He was of low origin and He didn't try to place Himself above His station in fact He took on the role of a servant which is decidedly below that of the Sovereign of the Universe.

Quote:

Free of pride works just as well since he doesn't really demonstrate this either.

Where was He ever haughty or arrogant?

Thayer's defines the greek word used for pride as:

the character of one who, with a swollen estimate of his own powers or merits, looks down on others and even treats them with insolence and contempt

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...ngs=5243&page=

Christ never acted that way.

Quote:

So how is this true? If there aren't really enough examples to support such a case, it is bragging. Please support how jesus really is the "Creator incarnate" as you put it. I already know that there are many other unsupported claims in the NT as to him being the word incarnate, but none really show this. Even if there were, where is their actual scriptural backing in the OT?

That may be a topic for a new thread. If you want to start one I'd be happy to participate in it.

EthnAlln · 11-30-2006, 04:59 AM

The two-sidedness of Jesus' character has been noted in many sources. Bertrand Russell, in Why I Am Not a Christian, compared him unfavorably with Socrates, saying that Socrates was never so condemnatory of those who disagreed with him as Jesus was of the Pharisees. C.S. Lewis, at the opposite extreme, notes how paradoxical it seems that "we" believe Jesus when he says he is meek and lowly of heart, while at the same time he claimed to be one with God. (There is some doubt whether he actually made that last claim, however.)

The explanation that I heard nearly 50 years ago still seems to fit: Jesus and John the Baptist were Qumranians:

http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue3/ar3dsscroll.html

From that link:

Quote:

Jesus fierce denunciations of the Pharisees imitates the tone and character of the scrolls, specifically the community council curses the sons of belial, as translated by Eisenman, a fierce execration of the Angel of The Pit and The Sons of Belial. John the Baptist also speaks and acts much like a zealous Qumranian. And the route to the Jordan River, where he baptized Jesus, passes very near the Qumran ruins. Jesus and his followers would at least have known of the settlement. More-over, the gospels, the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount repeat key words and concepts from the scrolls as if the terminology and context were second nature to Jesus and the early Christians. In short, since the scrolls predate the Bible, written after A.D. 60, early Christianity may derive from the Sect at Khirbet Qumran.

No Robots · 11-30-2006, 08:27 AM

Christ's tone of fiery condemnation is S.O.P. for prophets.

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11-30-2006, 08:27 AM	#120
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Christ's tone of fiery condemnation is S.O.P. for prophets.

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