lpetrich

Lucian of Samosata didn't think well of the early Xians he had known - he portrayed them as hopelessly superstitious and gullible in his Passing of Peregrinus.

He also makes some reference to them in his biography of religious prophet Alexander of Abonutichus, whom he slammed as a major-league fraud.

A of A's hometown was soon renamed Ionopolis, and it is now Inebolu. It is in the center of Turkey's north coast, at the northeastern end of Pontus and Bithynia.

Lucian did not mention Xians very much in it, however. But he stated that A of A would demand that atheists and Xians and Epicureans depart from his rites.

Clivedurdle

This does make sense, the other major destination of the shipping routes is of course Alexandria.

I wonder if the texts like Pliny's may be left aside and these ideas still make sense.

Our current experience of billionaires is that they do like to change things, why not meddle around in a new superstitio when you have got bored with the Greek plays?

Did Marcion go to Kos? His ships would of course have had antikythera mechanisms

Clivedurdle

I assume the distinction between senatorial and imperial provinces are related to Rubicon? Imperial provinces are those conquered post 44BCE?

aa5874

Marcion was a billionaire??? Marcion could read and write??

The first source to mention Marcion did not claim Marcion wrote anything. See Justin's First Apology.

rlogan

If one wishes to toss out the whole second century as too corrupt to trust, then we are left with the geography and the importance of Constantine moving the seat of Imperial Rome to the center of it in the 300's. Why choose Nicea as the site of a council instead of Jerusalem for example? Why not Rome? It is elementary that these take place in the cradle of its birth and strength of its foundation. Why is it a "Dear Greeks" composition?

I have an open mind about many things said here , even by people that I normally do not read. So much of early Christianity is quicksand, with redactors busily forging a pre-history, the most obscene of which is the Testimonium Flavianum.

The Tacitus forgery seems clear in establishing two "lie for jesus" objectives. One of which is fabriciating an early (first century) popularity in Rome, and the other is the martyr routine. Sheesh, these guys have no shame. The old manipulative "would they die for a lie" routine. Well, actually the whole thing is a fiction so the logical fallacy fails before it even starts.

I don't know why anyone is thinking what I have offered here is any support for an earthly Jesus. Clearly this is a later development. It is also elementary to see through the book of Acts as a bridging document to fuse the two major competitors for Christian supremacy, making the fabricated Paul subservient to the fabricated Jerusalem group.

I am mulling over the Pliny-Trajan correspondence from that same perspective: what are the objectives of the forger? On the face of it, the correspondence establishes Christianity in the 90's CE. It establishes Christianity as spreading like wildfire not just in the cities, but in the countryside. What is missing however is a Jesus, and this is remarkable. Why would a forger in the middle ages do such a thing?

We also don't need Marcion to be this erudite scholar penning the works of Paul himself. There is no doubt that the class of wealth educated their progeny at the best places of learning, so this is more than reasonable. Guess where he would most likely be sent too? Nicodemia/Nicea. But it isn't necessary. He's the Chamber of Commerce president type personality for the Greek Sphere by virtue of his key position in shipping. Whether he is backing churches or the churches backing him amounts to the same thing.

We don't view Marcion in isolation, but rather as the compatriot of the biggest goat dealer in Greece, the United Wheel Maker corporation, Persian Rug LTD, etc. This is a little more likely story than the bastard child born in a manger who somehow achieves an education by age 12 that is blowing religious scholars out of the water with his insight. Then in one year of ministry starts the largest religious movement of all time.

Instead we have the religion of the politically connected merchant class developing logically along the trade routes of the Greek sphere.

rlogan

Interesting. It is hard for me to evaluate this insomuch as the piece is a satire, yet importantly it acknowledges the existance of Christianity and that it is significant enough a movement to mock.


What is of vital sport in Lucian's work though is his writing on Saturnalia:

This group knew how to party.

aa5874

There are NO Pauline texts that have been found that are dated to any time before the Jewish War c 70 CE and NO source of antiquity that claimed the Pauline letters were composed before the story of Jesus was KNOWN.

Clearly a heavenly never on earth Jesus is an extremely late development at least 1600 years later than the Gospels.

So there weren't any Major competitors for Christianity in the 1st century if they were fabricated. Anyhow, it is still clear that the author of Acts did not acknowledge any Pauline letters to Churches.

There is no history whatsoever of any Jesus cult Churches of Jerusalem before the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

Again, the term Christian is not derived from the Jesus cult. People who were called Christians were not automatically believers in Jesus.

We have Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras who were called Christians but did NOT claim they believe in Jesus.

"Against All Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus and "Against Marcion" by Tertullian are NOT credible historical sources but are massive forgeries.

mountainman

Gold, power, influence ... the motives are often these.

Have a look through The Witnesses to the Historicity of Jesus by Drews - the section on the Roman Witnesses

1. Pliny and Suetonius
2. Tacitus
3. “Lucus a non Lucendo”.

This presents the people (and their political context) who made the sudden discovery that they had in their possession the texts of Plny and Tacitus describing Chrestians.

Happy mulling.

mountainman

Have a look at the number of books which are attributed to Lucian of Samosata in the 4th century and how many of those are openly recognised to be forgeries, not authored by Lucian.

aa5874

Once you reject a first-century Jewish origin to Christianity then you must also reject Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline Epistles.

"Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus and "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian promote a first century Jewish origin to the Jesus cult of Christians based on Acts and the Pauline letters so they too must be rejected.

Both the supposed Irenaeus and Tertullian all claimed or implied Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters are historically accurate.

How can we reject a first century Jewish origin of the Jesus cult but still accept Irenaeus and Tertullian who promoted the ACTIVITIES of the Jesus cult in that same century??

A careful examination of the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian will indeed show that their writings do NOT belong to the MAP of the Jesus cult.

The events of Jesus and the Apostles, including Paul, in Irenaeus and Tertullian do NOT require any Geography because the events are NOT history.