Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 02-06-2013, 03:38 PM

A map showing the Roman Empire at the time we first hear of Christians in the historical record is of enormous importance. Combined with other data it clearly shows that the origins of Christianity were in Bithynia Et Pontus. This is the Roman Province Pliny the Younger reported from in his correspondence with Emperor Trajan in 112 CE.

We must reject a first-century Jewish origin to Christianity, as demonstrated in its deficiency of geographic knowledge about Judea, and absence of Christians in the writings of Josephus Flavius. He was commanding general of the Jewish forces in the Battle of Jerusalem in 70 AD when they fell to the Romans. He wrote two great works in the 90’s CE, writing an entire chapter on Sects of the Jews yet nothing on Christians as such a sect. There is of course the obvious forgery known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely made by the Bishop Eusebius at the behest of Emperor Constantine in the 300’s. We will re-visit that period because of its enormous importance, but first the map.

Pliny tells us that a secret society has arisen in the Roman Empire: Christianity. There are other secret societies, and the Emperor Trajan has outlawed these. Hence Pliny investigated them. The Greeks were known for their mystery religions so this is not a surprise to see Christianity arising that way in the Greek sphere of the Roman Empire.

Pliny is serving Trajan in a combined administrative province known as Bithynia Et Pontus. On the map, one can see this province is on the South Bank of the Black Sea and also right next to Byzantium, which was re-named Constantinople when it became the Seat of the Roman Empire in 330CE. The red circle encompasses what was Ancient Greece, absorbed into the Roman Empire in 146 BCE. Pontus at the Eastern end of the combined province is more of a gateway to Greece on trade routes from the East, whereas the Western part with cities like Nicea and Nicodemia are at the core of Ancient Greece.

Pliny tells us that this religion had spread like wildfire in the province, and he had to take extreme measures to suppress it. If you were not a Roman Citizen, and refused to recant and curse Christ – you were executed. If you were a Roman Citizen, you were sent to Rome, to stand trial there. He states that some had been Christians as long as 20 years before – 92 CE. We can conclude that there were no Jewish Christian break-away cults in Judea in the 90’s, but something had already started in Greek circles, specifically Bithynia Et Pontus.

Crucial to our geographic lesson is that in 110 CE, Marcion is born in the city of Sinope, in that same province. His father was a wealthy shipping magnate; a role Marcion inherited himself over his lifetime. A ship owner is going to be about the wealthiest person you will find in this period, so we must take Marcion’s financial capacity very seriously, in addition to his direct command of transportation and trade.

By the 130’s, Marcion has studied the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible, obviously – and even more importantly has put together the first known Christian Bible containing The Gospel of the Lord, Galatians, Corinthians 1st and 2nd, Romans, Thessalonians 1st and 2nd, Ephesians (Laodiceans), Collossians, Philemon, Philippians.

Note that the capital city of Bithynia had over centuries been either at Nicodemia or Nicea. We recognize Nicea as the historical site of the Great Council of Nicea in 325 CE. They are right next to each other on this map. Nicodemia is between the T and H of Bithynia, just north of Nicea. I did not place it because it would obscure part of the name of the province.

If one draws a line to each of the cities of the first Marcionite Bible from that sometime capital city of Nicea/Nicomedia, we have spokes of a wheel that all correspond to important Greek trade routes both by sea and river. Shipping routes. The importance of Marcion being a second-generation ship owner is all the more clear. We could put Tarsus in there too, where Paul was allegedly from, and that would form a nice spoke in this shipping wheel too. But Paul is more likely just a legend. Paul is the pen-name of Marcion.

There is one more spoke not shown, and that is Romans. Obviously it is a spoke further out from the core sphere, the only one beyond the Greek sphere. It is interesting to note that Josephus travelled to Rome. He would have been aware of any sect attaching itself to the Hebrews as an origin, substitute, or enemy of Judaism. He would have been aware of any great persecution and he wrote nothing of it. So we have an overlap between Christianity existing in Greek circles, but not Roman or Judaic circles at the close of the first century. In short, it was bigger in Greek circles than it was in Roman or Judean first.

It is remarkable that in one person’s lifetime, Christianity goes from banned and without literature to a practice out in the open, with books in a Bible, and established Churches all along major shipping ports of the Greek sphere. There is one person uniquely qualified to put that into effect, and it is Marcion: Commissioning books to be written by scribes, copied, and transported takes the wealth of a shipper. It also takes the education – literacy, higher literacy especially, was so uncommon in those times. It takes political influence, obviously – since previously it had been a prohibited practice. If you have enough adherents, and you also have money, then you have political influence. Marcion allegedly travelled to Rome in the 140’s and as the Proto-Catholics would have it a donation he made to the Roman Church was returned to him.

It seems that Christianity existed in Rome in some form before Marcion arrives there. But it is not the same Christianity. That Christianity eventually lays claim to supremacy on the basis of Jesus allegedly bestowing church leadership on Peter. Suffice it to say though that there were competing factions in Greek and Roman spheres that were not merged into one canon during Marcion’s time. That was accomplished in the 4th Century. As we know there was a cacophony of literature that had to be trimmed down to an approved canon in the 4th century.

The Council of Nicea in 325 CE is the most prominent seat of the final struggle in supremacy over Christianity in which the proto-Catholic (Roman Catholic) faction was merged with the Marcionite wing under the Nicene Creed. The proto-Catholic faction is represented by the Gospel wing of Christianity whereas the Marcionites are the Pauline school. There were many councils in the 300’s, a practice Constantine started, with another in 327 on the heels of Nicea and in 330 Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium and re-named it Constantinople.

Constantine presided at Nicea, having been raised and educated in Nicomedia nearby. He was already doing construction at Byzantium in 328 in anticipation of moving the capital of Rome there, and was meanwhile living in Nicodemia which had already been serving as the Eastern capital of the Empire prior to Constantine.

In conclusion, we have traced the legitimate historical record from the first observation of Christianity to its final consolidated form known as Roman Catholic. We see Christianity arising as a mystery religion in the Greek sphere of influence at the end of the first century, centered around Nicea in the Province of Bithynia et Pontus. When it finally produces a literature then geographically it is a set of spokes to a trade wheel across the Greek sphere of influence that travels ultimately to the Capital of the Roman Empire, sort of. More precisely, the capital of the Roman Empire moves to the center of Christian origins in the Greek sphere.

We do not have literature that we can positively ascribe to any principal actor outside the Greek sphere. The origin of Mark is especially important to us as the first gospel. It may have itself arisen in the Greek sphere. But what we certainly do not have is evidence of Christianity originating in Rome and spreading out in spokes of a wheel from there, and we have positive evidence against Christianity arising in Judea. The best candidate is the Greek sphere centered at Bithynia et Pontus, as a mystery religion seeking a single God but a more forgiving one than the Jehovah of the Hebrew Bible. It not only originated there, but remained the principle stronghold through the final consolidation of Christians under Constantine.

jakejonesiv · 02-06-2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

A map showing the Roman Empire at the time we first hear of Christians in the historical record is of enormous importance. Combined with other data it clearly shows that the origins of Christianity were in Bithynia Et Pontus. This is the Roman Province Pliny the Younger reported from in his correspondence with Emperor Trajan in 112 CE.

We must reject a first-century Jewish origin to Christianity, as demonstrated in its deficiency of geographic knowledge about Judea, and absence of Christians in the writings of Josephus Flavius. He was commanding general of the Jewish forces in the Battle of Jerusalem in 70 AD when they fell to the Romans. He wrote two great works in the 90’s CE, writing an entire chapter on Sects of the Jews yet nothing on Christians as such a sect. There is of course the obvious forgery known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely made by the Bishop Eusebius at the behest of Emperor Constantine in the 300’s. We will re-visit that period because of its enormous importance, but first the map.

Pliny tells us that a secret society has arisen in the Roman Empire: Christianity. There are other secret societies, and the Emperor Trajan has outlawed these. Hence Pliny investigated them. The Greeks were known for their mystery religions so this is not a surprise to see Christianity arising that way in the Greek sphere of the Roman Empire.

Pliny is serving Trajan in a combined administrative province known as Bithynia Et Pontus. On the map, one can see this province is on the South Bank of the Black Sea and also right next to Byzantium, which was re-named Constantinople when it became the Seat of the Roman Empire in 330CE. The red circle encompasses what was Ancient Greece, absorbed into the Roman Empire in 146 BCE. Pontus at the Eastern end of the combined province is more of a gateway to Greece on trade routes from the East, whereas the Western part with cities like Nicea and Nicodemia are at the core of Ancient Greece.

Pliny tells us that this religion had spread like wildfire in the province, and he had to take extreme measures to suppress it. If you were not a Roman Citizen, and refused to recant and curse Christ – you were executed. If you were a Roman Citizen, you were sent to Rome, to stand trial there. He states that some had been Christians as long as 20 years before – 92 CE. We can conclude that there were no Jewish Christian break-away cults in Judea in the 90’s, but something had already started in Greek circles, specifically Bithynia Et Pontus.

Crucial to our geographic lesson is that in 110 CE, Marcion is born in the city of Sinope, in that same province. His father was a wealthy shipping magnate; a role Marcion inherited himself over his lifetime. A ship owner is going to be about the wealthiest person you will find in this period, so we must take Marcion’s financial capacity very seriously, in addition to his direct command of transportation and trade.

Dear rlogan,

I have often thought it much as you! However, we indeed find that the Letter of Pliny the Younger is a False Witness. The 10th Book is the first time listed in the contents from the 10th-Century which is now preserved in Florence Beluacensis (Laurentianus Ashburnham R 98). Listed in the contents, but not be included in the Codex itself!

It remains an open question about whether it ever was there. For Th Stangl (1886) owed that appears in the index occurs only once LIBRI NVMERO DECEM the remaining labels in the four missing explained as the "Whim of a grammarian".

The internal evidence shows the entire 10th book of the Pliny-Trajan corrpondence is a fake. Tertullian (e.g. Apol 2.6) is not a report of the two Pliny letters, but the Vorlage of "Plinius" The 10th book of the Pliny-Trajan Correspondance was unknown before the discovery in Paris by Friar Giovanni Giocondo at the turn of 14th to 15th centuries. (In 1498 Giocondo published Pliny's Epistles in Bologna.)

The only question is whether Friar Giovanni Giocondo or some one else forged the letters. The accuracy of the dating of the Beluacensis and the authenticity of the ominous index entry, provided must drop the decision in favor of the former.

whether Pliny was a reliable witness to the existence of a historical Jesus and Christian communities which had spread to the province of Pontis by 111.
It can now be Answered with a clear no.

Isn't is strange that the incredible non-Christian evidences of Jesus according to Tacitus and Pliny were both unknown before the middle ages? In the very late 15th century, in France Fra Giovanni Giocondo "discovered" a manuscript of Pliny the Younger, containing his correspondence with Trajan.

See H.Detering, _Falsche Zeugen, Außerchristliche Jesuszeugnisse auf dem Prüfstand_, chapter 3.

Best Regards,
Jake Jones IV

Sheshbazzar · 02-06-2013, 05:49 PM

Is there anything of christianity that does not reek of fraud.

aa5874 · 02-06-2013, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

A map showing the Roman Empire at the time we first hear of Christians in the historical record is of enormous importance. Combined with other data it clearly shows that the origins of Christianity were in Bithynia Et Pontus. This is the Roman Province Pliny the Younger reported from in his correspondence with Emperor Trajan in 112 CE...

It is imperative that you state exactly what you mean by 'Christians' because there is NO evidence at all that Christians of the Jesus cult were in Bithynia during the time of Pliny.

Whether or not the Pliny letter to Trajan is a forgery the author showed NO awareness of any character called Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God and Messianic ruler who was crucified under Pilate as a Sacrificial Lamb for the Universal Salvation of All mankind.

The author appear completely unaware of Churches of the Jesus cult in the Roman Empire and that Christians of the Jesus cult were being persecuted since 33 CE.

The author of the Pliny letter claimed he Executed some called Christians but had no idea what they Believed and then Tortured some to find out the Truth.

After Torture, the supposed Christians did NOT ever mention Jesus of Nazareth or the story of Jesus that should have been known by Pliny if Paul was 'all over' the Roman Empire even in Rome.

The writings of Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger have utterly destroyed any claim of a Jesus cult of Christians or a Messianic ruler called Jesus in the 1st century before Vespasian, who was the Prophesied Messianic ruler in Hebrew Scripture.

Effectively, the Entire 1st century and up to around 115 CE is locked. There is no known history of the Jesus cult and this is corroborated by the dated NT manuscripts.

We virtually have a perfect match.

Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the younger do NOT mention Jesus and the Christians of the Jesus cult up to 115 CE and no manuscripts that mention Jesus and the Jesus cult are dated to the 1st century.

The earliest non-Apologetic source to mention Christians who worshiped a crucified man appears to be Lucian of Samosata who claimed there were Christians in Palestine.
Lucian's Death of Peregrine

Quote:

...
It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed...................... The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

...By the 130’s, Marcion has studied the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible, obviously – and even more importantly has put together the first known Christian Bible containing The Gospel of the Lord, Galatians, Corinthians 1st and 2nd, Romans, Thessalonians 1st and 2nd, Ephesians (Laodiceans), Collossians, Philemon, Philippians....

There is really no credible sources that show Marcion used or had a Christian Bible.

Apologetic souurces contradict "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus and "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian.

Justin Martyr a contemporary of Marcion did NOT claim Marcion had a Canon. Justin himself did NOT use any Canon or a Canon with the Pauline letters.

Hippolytus, in "Against all Heresies" denied that Marcion used or mutilated the Pauline letters and specifically admitted that Marcion used the writings of Empedocles.

Ephrem the Syrian who wrote against Marcion also did not claim Marcion used or mutilated the Pauline letters.

Both the writings of Irenaeus and Tertullian have been REJECTED by Scholars with respect to their dating, authorship and chronology of the books of the Canon.

Effectively, there is really no evidence whatsoever that Christians of the Jesus cult were in Bithynia in the time of Pliny and no evidence that the Christians of the Jesus cult ever knew of the Pauline letters up to 150 CE.

Based on Lucian of Samosata Christians of the Jesus cult were in Palestine some time around the mid-2nd century and incidentally Justin Martyr a Christian of the Jesus cult was also from Palestine.

Justin's First Apology

Quote:

..... I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, [natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused, myself being one of them....

Early Christians of the Jesus cult seem to have been in Palestine--Not Bithynia.

Justin Martyr is corroborated by Lucian.

Toto · 02-07-2013, 01:13 PM

outhouse's hijack has been split off here

rlogan · 02-07-2013, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

?In the very late 15th century, in France Fra Giovanni Giocondo "discovered" a manuscript of Pliny the Younger, containing his correspondence with Trajan.

See H.Detering, _Falsche Zeugen, Außerchristliche Jesuszeugnisse auf dem Prüfstand_, chapter 3.

Best Regards,
Jake Jones IV

Oh how exquisitely painful, yet I actually wondered this when taking a glance at the pedigree of this correspondence.

I quoted this part because the best candidate for a forgery is whoever's hands they show up in. Generally you find motive, means, and opportunity as a "coincidence" at the same time.

I take this a very serious question and will have to do my homework and ponder it more. One of the things I already wonder about is whether Marcion actually went to Rome or not, and whether he made a donation to the Church that was refused or not. I am skeptical about anything coming from Catholic sources.

What am convinced of though is that Marcion's location was Pontus and that this area of Nicea-Nicodemia-Byzantium is absolutely critical to the formation of early Christianity and its consolidation in the 4th century.

Because this was the seat of governance for the Greek sphere, the Eastern half of the Empire, with the institutions of higher learning, the wealth - everything you need for the production and dissemination of a Bible.

Where should you look for origins of a movement that is centered at this very place in the 300's? Obviously not somewhere distant, but right there. So when we look back, who do we find? Marcion and his Bible. The Catholics co-opt it by saying he tampered with them.

And I do not rely on these books actually being written to anyone in these places as they masquerade to be. Rather, if you were putting together a Bible that was being marketed to the Greek Sphere, then you would do it just like this. As a group it is a "Dear Greeks..." composition.

Letters to the Corinthians are not being read by Corinthians but rather the Galatians are reading the letters to the Corinthians, to the Philippians, to the Ephesians, etc. all as one Bible.

I think that even if Pliny fails as a forgery, what you have left is a Bible Springing forth first in the Greek Sphere as the geography shows, and it retains its position of dominance through to the end of the 300's in becoming the official state religion.

Thank you for directing attention to this. Thank you Toto for handling what you are.

rlogan · 02-07-2013, 01:49 PM

Jake -

Is that Detering treatment of Pliny available online anywhere? I really want to read in full what he has to say about it. I like what I have read in Detering's work. I wish more of the Dutch Radicals was in English. I'm on board with Tacitus being an interpolation, by the way.

aa5874 · 02-07-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

...I take this a very serious question and will have to do my homework and ponder it more. One of the things I already wonder about is whether Marcion actually went to Rome or not, and whether he made a donation to the Church that was refused or not. I am skeptical about anything coming from Catholic sources....

The donation by Marcion is found in "Against Marcion" 4.4 but the writing is a massive forgery. "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian literally fell from the sky and was unknown to the very Church for hundreds of years after it was supposedly composed.

Up to the end of the 4th century, "Against Marcion" of Five Books went unnoticed even by Eusebius and Jerome.

Both Eusebius and Jerome mentioned about 8 writers who wrote Against Marcion and Tertullian was NOT listed.

Jerome around c 400 CE mentioned books written by Tertullian and "Against Marcion" is NOT listed.

But, what is most fascinating is that Jerome admitted that Tertullian wrote AGAINST the CHURCH--NOT Against Marcion.

See De Viris Illustribus.

Quote:

Of his fine oratorical genius, Tertullian, in the seven books which he wrote against the church on behalf of Montanus, satirically says that he was considered a prophet by many of us.
..

Tertullian's "Against Marcion" was without provenance for hundreds of years.

jakejonesiv · 02-07-2013, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

Jake -

Is that Detering treatment of Pliny available online anywhere? I really want to read in full what he has to say about it. I like what I have read in Detering's work. I wish more of the Dutch Radicals was in English. I'm on board with Tacitus being an interpolation, by the way.

Hi rlogan,

I have read many of your messages here and you are one of insight.

Unfortunately, I have only the book in hard copy in German; the exemplar from H.Detering at time of publication. It is well worth seeking out the book for order online; it deals with all the secular witnesses to Jesus and finds all false. ISBN 978-3-86569-070-8

Jake

aa5874 · 02-07-2013, 10:16 PM

There is no real evidence that the Jesus cult started in Bithynia or that Marcion was a Christian of the Jesus cult and was the earliest Christian cult.

The first source to mention Marcion was Justin Martyr and he was his contemporary.

Justin claimed Marcion preached about another God and another Son--Not Jesus.

This is extremely significant.

1. Marcion did NOT preach of Jesus the Son of the God of the Jews.

2. Marcion and the Marcionites LAUGHED at Christians of the Jesus cult.

First Apology

Quote:

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us.....

Justin Martyr did NOT acknowledge that Marcion wrote any books up to 150 CE or mutilated the Pauline letters.

From Justin, Marcion was from Pontus, but he was NOT a Christian of the Jesus cult.

Now, examine Acts of the Apostles.

The author appears to claim that Bithynia was NOT Christianised by the Jesus cult.

Acts 16:7 BBE

Quote:

And having come to Mysia, they made an attempt to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not let them...

In and out the Canon, there appears to be NO history of the Jesus cult in Bithynia up to the time of Marcion.

The Jesus cult was in Palestine based on Lucian of Samosata.

02-06-2013, 03:38 PM	#1
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	The Geography of Early Christianity A map showing the Roman Empire at the time we first hear of Christians in the historical record is of enormous importance. Combined with other data it clearly shows that the origins of Christianity were in Bithynia Et Pontus. This is the Roman Province Pliny the Younger reported from in his correspondence with Emperor Trajan in 112 CE. We must reject a first-century Jewish origin to Christianity, as demonstrated in its deficiency of geographic knowledge about Judea, and absence of Christians in the writings of Josephus Flavius. He was commanding general of the Jewish forces in the Battle of Jerusalem in 70 AD when they fell to the Romans. He wrote two great works in the 90’s CE, writing an entire chapter on Sects of the Jews yet nothing on Christians as such a sect. There is of course the obvious forgery known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely made by the Bishop Eusebius at the behest of Emperor Constantine in the 300’s. We will re-visit that period because of its enormous importance, but first the map. Pliny tells us that a secret society has arisen in the Roman Empire: Christianity. There are other secret societies, and the Emperor Trajan has outlawed these. Hence Pliny investigated them. The Greeks were known for their mystery religions so this is not a surprise to see Christianity arising that way in the Greek sphere of the Roman Empire. Pliny is serving Trajan in a combined administrative province known as Bithynia Et Pontus. On the map, one can see this province is on the South Bank of the Black Sea and also right next to Byzantium, which was re-named Constantinople when it became the Seat of the Roman Empire in 330CE. The red circle encompasses what was Ancient Greece, absorbed into the Roman Empire in 146 BCE. Pontus at the Eastern end of the combined province is more of a gateway to Greece on trade routes from the East, whereas the Western part with cities like Nicea and Nicodemia are at the core of Ancient Greece. Pliny tells us that this religion had spread like wildfire in the province, and he had to take extreme measures to suppress it. If you were not a Roman Citizen, and refused to recant and curse Christ – you were executed. If you were a Roman Citizen, you were sent to Rome, to stand trial there. He states that some had been Christians as long as 20 years before – 92 CE. We can conclude that there were no Jewish Christian break-away cults in Judea in the 90’s, but something had already started in Greek circles, specifically Bithynia Et Pontus. Crucial to our geographic lesson is that in 110 CE, Marcion is born in the city of Sinope, in that same province. His father was a wealthy shipping magnate; a role Marcion inherited himself over his lifetime. A ship owner is going to be about the wealthiest person you will find in this period, so we must take Marcion’s financial capacity very seriously, in addition to his direct command of transportation and trade. By the 130’s, Marcion has studied the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible, obviously – and even more importantly has put together the first known Christian Bible containing The Gospel of the Lord, Galatians, Corinthians 1st and 2nd, Romans, Thessalonians 1st and 2nd, Ephesians (Laodiceans), Collossians, Philemon, Philippians. Note that the capital city of Bithynia had over centuries been either at Nicodemia or Nicea. We recognize Nicea as the historical site of the Great Council of Nicea in 325 CE. They are right next to each other on this map. Nicodemia is between the T and H of Bithynia, just north of Nicea. I did not place it because it would obscure part of the name of the province. If one draws a line to each of the cities of the first Marcionite Bible from that sometime capital city of Nicea/Nicomedia, we have spokes of a wheel that all correspond to important Greek trade routes both by sea and river. Shipping routes. The importance of Marcion being a second-generation ship owner is all the more clear. We could put Tarsus in there too, where Paul was allegedly from, and that would form a nice spoke in this shipping wheel too. But Paul is more likely just a legend. Paul is the pen-name of Marcion. There is one more spoke not shown, and that is Romans. Obviously it is a spoke further out from the core sphere, the only one beyond the Greek sphere. It is interesting to note that Josephus travelled to Rome. He would have been aware of any sect attaching itself to the Hebrews as an origin, substitute, or enemy of Judaism. He would have been aware of any great persecution and he wrote nothing of it. So we have an overlap between Christianity existing in Greek circles, but not Roman or Judaic circles at the close of the first century. In short, it was bigger in Greek circles than it was in Roman or Judean first. It is remarkable that in one person’s lifetime, Christianity goes from banned and without literature to a practice out in the open, with books in a Bible, and established Churches all along major shipping ports of the Greek sphere. There is one person uniquely qualified to put that into effect, and it is Marcion: Commissioning books to be written by scribes, copied, and transported takes the wealth of a shipper. It also takes the education – literacy, higher literacy especially, was so uncommon in those times. It takes political influence, obviously – since previously it had been a prohibited practice. If you have enough adherents, and you also have money, then you have political influence. Marcion allegedly travelled to Rome in the 140’s and as the Proto-Catholics would have it a donation he made to the Roman Church was returned to him. It seems that Christianity existed in Rome in some form before Marcion arrives there. But it is not the same Christianity. That Christianity eventually lays claim to supremacy on the basis of Jesus allegedly bestowing church leadership on Peter. Suffice it to say though that there were competing factions in Greek and Roman spheres that were not merged into one canon during Marcion’s time. That was accomplished in the 4th Century. As we know there was a cacophony of literature that had to be trimmed down to an approved canon in the 4th century. The Council of Nicea in 325 CE is the most prominent seat of the final struggle in supremacy over Christianity in which the proto-Catholic (Roman Catholic) faction was merged with the Marcionite wing under the Nicene Creed. The proto-Catholic faction is represented by the Gospel wing of Christianity whereas the Marcionites are the Pauline school. There were many councils in the 300’s, a practice Constantine started, with another in 327 on the heels of Nicea and in 330 Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium and re-named it Constantinople. Constantine presided at Nicea, having been raised and educated in Nicomedia nearby. He was already doing construction at Byzantium in 328 in anticipation of moving the capital of Rome there, and was meanwhile living in Nicodemia which had already been serving as the Eastern capital of the Empire prior to Constantine. In conclusion, we have traced the legitimate historical record from the first observation of Christianity to its final consolidated form known as Roman Catholic. We see Christianity arising as a mystery religion in the Greek sphere of influence at the end of the first century, centered around Nicea in the Province of Bithynia et Pontus. When it finally produces a literature then geographically it is a set of spokes to a trade wheel across the Greek sphere of influence that travels ultimately to the Capital of the Roman Empire, sort of. More precisely, the capital of the Roman Empire moves to the center of Christian origins in the Greek sphere. We do not have literature that we can positively ascribe to any principal actor outside the Greek sphere. The origin of Mark is especially important to us as the first gospel. It may have itself arisen in the Greek sphere. But what we certainly do not have is evidence of Christianity originating in Rome and spreading out in spokes of a wheel from there, and we have positive evidence against Christianity arising in Judea. The best candidate is the Greek sphere centered at Bithynia et Pontus, as a mystery religion seeking a single God but a more forgiving one than the Jehovah of the Hebrew Bible. It not only originated there, but remained the principle stronghold through the final consolidation of Christians under Constantine.

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02-06-2013, 05:49 PM	#3
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Is there anything of christianity that does not reek of fraud.

02-07-2013, 01:13 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	outhouse's hijack has been split off here

02-07-2013, 01:49 PM	#7
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Jake - Is that Detering treatment of Pliny available online anywhere? I really want to read in full what he has to say about it. I like what I have read in Detering's work. I wish more of the Dutch Radicals was in English. I'm on board with Tacitus being an interpolation, by the way.

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