User

Have you ever noticed how the Bible remains completely ambiguous towards the J-Man's sexuality. So what if he was gay?

Take a look at this link:
http://worldzone.net/family/johnanderson/indexh.shtml

I'd actually be quite happy if Jesus was proven to be gay. Then all of those southern baptist, bible thumping bigots would have to look back at themselves in the mirror, and try to face their reflections.

-DM-

My $0.02 worth:

The author of this web page shows his ignorance--or perhaps purposeful avoidance of the facts.

1) The fact that it cannot be proven that Jesus was NOT a homosexual has nothing necessarily to do with whether the alleged homophobia of the Church is or is not justified.

2) The Church can denounce homosexuality (specific homosexual behavior, actually) on the basis of several different Bible verses (which the author of the web page in question should know about if he is going to ask such questions).

There is a constant effort on the part of some gay men to make it seem as if the Bible doesn't really condemn homosexual behavior. What it boils down to is that those who attempt to make the Bible support homosexuality are rationalizing. In doing so, they are straining at gnats.

-Don-

P.S. See also Does the NT reference homosexuality?

Peter Kirby

The attempt to read "Jesus is gay" into what Clement says about the hidden gospel of Mark is the primary reason that Christians have claimed the letter found at Mar Saba to be a forgery, even alleging Morton Smith, who claims to have found it, to be its author. Such an interpretation would be plausible if Morton Smith (or another modern) were the author, but that would bring the argument around full circle. How the passage would have been read by Clement of Alexandria is a separate matter, as is the intention of the pericope's author, and one perhaps deserving of study, if a scholar didn't mind getting his hands dirty with the subject. Note that Clement in the letter rejects the Carpocratian Mark, which has "naked man with naked man," suggesting that Clement would have read the passage differently than the sexual libertines who revised Mark's hidden teachings. There is a danger in transferring our ideas about what indicates one is homosexual back into the ancient Mediterranean. (And the author of the web page makes at least one mistake in confusing Greek attitudes about sexuality with those of Palestinian Jews.)

I find the statement "Jesus was a homosexual" to be much too convenient for one who, like myself, supports the equal rights of homosexuals. It's the same reason that I don't indulge in speculation about the sexuality of Shakespeare. Whether it corresponds to an actuality of the past or not, it is certainly unproven propaganda and distracts from what the political issue is for any rational person, which should not depend on the private life of a dead famous figurehead. In any case, you will not be able to convince a Christian anti-homosexual that Jesus was gay.

best,
Peter Kirby

premjan

I support the belief that Jesus was celibate, or mostly celibate.

There is that one quote about how marriage is to prevent fornication however man and woman should cling to each other after marriage. This leads me to believe Jesus was pro-celibacy. Indicating that he was probably mostly celibate (perhaps he had one or two slip-ups who knows?)

Bill

I hardly believe that "slip-ups" are necessarily an issue here.

As has been pointed out before, the description "Jesus of Nazareth" is erroneous. It is most likely intended to be "Jesus the Nazarite," referring to the Nazarite vow, which is described in Numbers Chapter 6. Especially holy men, such as Sampson, were known to be Nazarites for life. The argument advanced by Christians who know about this confusion over the Nazarite vow is that the Old Testament predicts (requires) that Jesus would be a "Nazarite for life" just like Sampson.

Celibacy does not seem to have been directly required by the elements of the Nazarite vows, but it might be inferred. However, Sampson's problem with Delilah was that she cut his hair, not that he wasn't celibate with respect to her. After all, Sampson was known to have visited a prostitute. (Judges 16:1-3.)

So, celibacy really ought to come from some other portion of the philosophy of Jesus. The best guess as to the source of a celebicy vow would be from the Essene connection, given that the Essenes were already living as a community of men apart from women and the larger community of Jews. (Again, the idea of Jesus as an Essene remains controversial, but identifying Jesus as an Essene monk is one of the ways to make sense of the whole business over celibacy in the first place.)

But even there, as the story of Josephus himself shows (Josephus relates how he went about studying each of the major Jewish philosophies, including the Essene philosophy), you weren't necessarily "born into" any of those philosophies, but you could choose a teacher and learn your way into any of them at any time. Thus, even if Jesus ended his years celibate, there is no requirement that he be celibate prior to his becoming a member of the Essene monks. Thus, Jesus could have been a non-virgin without necessarily having had any "slip-ups." (And yes, he could have even married Mary Magdaline, as the Arab texts suggest, although the Christian texts deny that possibility. The timing of those events would just have to be carefully thought out, as marriage after his period as a holy man would imply that he took the Nazarite vow for just a period of time.)

== Bill

Doctor X

The bottom line remains that we have no historical evidence to conclude anything about a historical figure. Scholars may make inferences such as, "Well . . . it seems the earliest layer of proto-whatever may indicate that perhaps, if we believe the saying is legitimate, that maybe he believed. . . ." The texts do not seem bothered by the concept of him having brothers, and if you believe Galatians and Acts, he had a brother . . . of which we really know nothing.

Speculation on what such a figure may or may not have done is more politics than scholarship.

--J.D.

Poseidon

QUOTE]Have you ever noticed how the Bible remains completely ambiguous towards the J-Man's sexuality. So what if he was gay?[/QUOTE]

I am a virgin deity in this sea of unbelief but cannot spare a blow from my Trident at this point: I would merely pity “J-Man", of course, as anyone should for any homosexual person, since homosexuality is a malefic choice. Also, I would maintain the same position for anyone posing such a question.

Poseidon

Peter Kirby

F'in hypocritical Greek deities.

Poseidon and Pelops
"Pelops rose renewed from the clean cauldron, and though he had been handsome before, his beauty was now beyond compare. Poseidon, the god of the seas, saw the radiant boy and instantly fell in love with him. His heart broken by desire, he ran after the lad, lifted him into his chariot drawn by golden horses, and took him up to Mount Olympus. Dione, his mother, in vain sent men through Sipylus to search for him, for they found no trace of the boy. Up on Mount Olympus Poseidon appointed Pelops to be his cup-bearer and lover. He fed the youth on ambrosia, taught him to drive his magic chariot and would have kept him there forever, but the other gods, still smarting over the experience with the father, had the son return to earth. Poseidon sadly parted from his friend, but not before heaping great treasure upon him."

We've got pictures to prove it too.



best,
Peter Kirby

Doctor X

Peter:

Make sure you keep the original sketches. . . .

--J.D.

Poseidon

Dear PK:

Of course Poseidon cannot refute nor deny his debauched "past", but is grateful for an interior metamorphosis, in St. Paul's sense:


"Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.”

2 Cor 5: 17


My "Corinthian" way is truly behind me (no pun intended).