Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dave31 · 07-07-2011, 07:57 AM

Quote:

The Lord of Wine and the Sacred Meal

"As in the gospel story, both wine and figs figure in the Egyptian religion, as in CT Sp. 516, in which the Osiris “shall eat figs and drink wine.”2 Also in the Pyramid Texts (PT 610:1723a-b/M 375) appears a reference to “the great bread and this wine-like water” given to the “chief of Letopolis” (Horus)3 who was “raised up,”4 a ritual resembling the Christian communion/eucharist with sacramental bread and wine. (Mt 26:26; Mk 14:22; Lk 22:19) Another such passage—this time involving beer, rather than wine—occurs in BD 30B:

“Let there be given to him bread and beer which have been issued in the presence of Osiris, and he will be forever like the Followers of Horus.”5

We find this same sort of eucharistic empowerment in CT Sp. 404:

Those who rebel will have no power over this flesh of mine, for my bread is in Pe and my beer is in Dep, and this power of mine belongs to me. My power is bread and beer, my power is life, prosperity and health.6

The sacred meal is also discussed in CT Sp. 644, where the Osiris afterward identifying himself as Anubis—remarks, “I have come that I may conduct the funeral meal and propitiate those who are in the upper houses…”7 The theme crops up again in CT Sp. 1033, when Re/Ra partakes of “the meal as the Lord of Right.”8

Again in BD 72, the deceased is to receive the “holy sacraments”:

“Given him are bread and beer and a chunk of meat from the altar of Osiris."

- Christ in Egypt (or via: amazon.co.uk), 291

There's more about the Eucharist on page 292:

Quote:

"A member of the prestigious and influential Society for Biblical Archaeology, the lawyer St. Chad Boscawen worked as an assistant to the great Dr. Samuel Birch in the British Museum’s Oriental Department and was considered one of the “principal English Orientalists” of his day.3 Validating this contention of an ancient papyrus discussing wine and bread as the blood and body of the Egyptian god, the “blood of Osiris” is referred to in ancient Egyptian literature, such as the Leyden or Leiden papyrus (or “Demotical Magical Papyrus”), which purportedly dates to around the same era as that in possession of Boscawen and which describes the blood of Osiris as being poured into “this cup, this wine.”4 Indeed, for eons prior to that time, the Nile’s reddish water and banks were themselves considered the “blood of Osiris”5—a life-replenishing motif difficult to miss. It would also be reasonable and logical, based on all the evidence, to contend that these very words of the Christian eucharist as applied to Osiris existed first, long before the common era and the creation of Christianity. The eucharist drink as the blood of the god is also prefigured in an enigmatic Coffin Text (CT Sp. 394):

“My blood is drunk…”6"

- Christ in Egypt (or via: amazon.co.uk), 292

And there's more throughout the book.

andrewcriddle · 07-07-2011, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

There's more about the Eucharist on page 292:

Quote:

"A member of the prestigious and influential Society for Biblical Archaeology, the lawyer St. Chad Boscawen worked as an assistant to the great Dr. Samuel Birch in the British Museum’s Oriental Department and was considered one of the “principal English Orientalists” of his day.3 Validating this contention of an ancient papyrus discussing wine and bread as the blood and body of the Egyptian god, the “blood of Osiris” is referred to in ancient Egyptian literature, such as the Leyden or Leiden papyrus (or “Demotical Magical Papyrus”), which purportedly dates to around the same era as that in possession of Boscawen and which describes the blood of Osiris as being poured into “this cup, this wine.”4 Indeed, for eons prior to that time, the Nile’s reddish water and banks were themselves considered the “blood of Osiris”5—a life-replenishing motif difficult to miss. It would also be reasonable and logical, based on all the evidence, to contend that these very words of the Christian eucharist as applied to Osiris existed first, long before the common era and the creation of Christianity. The eucharist drink as the blood of the god is also prefigured in an enigmatic Coffin Text (CT Sp. 394):

“My blood is drunk…”6"

- Christ in Egypt (or via: amazon.co.uk), 292

And there's more throughout the book.

The Leiden papyrus reference relates to a spell in which a man mixes his blood (and other fluids) in wine and gives it to a woman to drink to obtain her "love". The associated charm refers to a myth in which Osiris gave his blood to Isis to drink to obtain Isis' love in the same way that the man is giving his blood to the woman to drink in order to obtain the woman's affections.

I doubt if it is really relevant.

Andrew Criddle

Dave31 · 07-07-2011, 02:02 PM

If this ritual of drinking the god's blood - for whatever reason - was popular in an area in which Christianity arose, a religion in which the god's blood is drunk, then it certainly IS relevant in a comparative religion study. Not all ancient Egyptians are going to be theologians who will split hairs and over-analyze everything. In fact, that's the purpose of the masses, to receive whatever the priests come up with. If the priests of a new religion are trying to gain followers by borrowing motifs and rituals, they aren't necessarily going to take them wholesale and intact. That's how it (syncretism) all works and the purpose of comparative religion studies, not to find an exact parallel with all the same details in which the names of the gods have been scratched out and replaced. That's an unrealistic expectation and not at all how the development of religion and mythology has worked.

I see no reason at all why the Christian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk couldn't have been influenced by the Egyptian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk.

andrewcriddle · 07-07-2011, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

I see no reason at all why the Christian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk couldn't have been influenced by the Egyptian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk.

My point is that the Leiden papyrus is not referring to a sacred meal, it is referring to a spell to seduce a woman.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 07-07-2011, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

My point is that the Leiden papyrus is not referring to a sacred meal, it is referring to a spell to seduce a woman.

Andrew Criddle

At last, something useful out of these ancient texts!

Roger Pearse · 07-08-2011, 01:32 PM

The magical papyri that I have seen are collections of spells. The so-called Mithras liturgy is one of these. However it seems very doubtful that these texts relate in any real way to the cult of deities mentioned. Even the Jewish god is invoked in one of them. It seemed to me rather as if the deity names are given more as "power words" than in any normal context, but of course I might be mistaken.

There is an English translation from 1904 of the London-Leiden papyrus referenced above here:

http://hermetic.com/pgm/leiden.html

and here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/dmp/index.htm

The specific part is here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/dmp/dmp18.htm

The tendency of the translators of the period to fall into pseudo-Jacobean English inevitably gave their versions a rather King James feel, but I suspect this is quite misleading.

The papyrus roll itself is of the 3rd century A.D., or perhaps a little later. This means that it probably comes from the find of magical papyri at Thebes / Luxor during the early 19th century, which came into the hands of an adventurer calling himself Jean d'Anastasi, who seems to have been Armenian. This collection was probably found in the tomb of a scholar priest who collected them. Unfortunately the find was made by treasure-hunters and nothing is known about it.

I found some details of our papyrus in Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in translation, p.lv. It is listed as PGM XIV in the list of Greek magical texts. The larger part of it is in Leiden, (P. Lugd. Batav. J 383, formerly Anastasi 61), but the shorter opening section is in London (P. Lond. Demot. 10070, formerly Anastasi 1072). There are glosses in Greek letters, which provided an important aid to understanding demotic. Both the beginning and end are lost, but the preserved text of the roll consists of 29 large columns on the recto and 33 smaller columns on the verso. All are in Egyptian, except for three short passages in three different columns, written in Greek. Most of the Egyptian is in demotic, but there are frequent lapses into hieratic, as if the scribe was copying from an older manuscript, and there are also glosses in Old Coptic, usually to give magical names, and presumably to indicate pronunciation (difficult to do in older Egyptian alphabets). Each column of the recto is written within a frame of horizontal and vertical lines, and there are chapter headings in red ink (as in older Egyptian papyri). The same scribe also wrote PGM XII.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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07-07-2011, 02:02 PM	#33
Dave31 Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: USA Posts: 425	If this ritual of drinking the god's blood - for whatever reason - was popular in an area in which Christianity arose, a religion in which the god's blood is drunk, then it certainly IS relevant in a comparative religion study. Not all ancient Egyptians are going to be theologians who will split hairs and over-analyze everything. In fact, that's the purpose of the masses, to receive whatever the priests come up with. If the priests of a new religion are trying to gain followers by borrowing motifs and rituals, they aren't necessarily going to take them wholesale and intact. That's how it (syncretism) all works and the purpose of comparative religion studies, not to find an exact parallel with all the same details in which the names of the gods have been scratched out and replaced. That's an unrealistic expectation and not at all how the development of religion and mythology has worked. I see no reason at all why the Christian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk couldn't have been influenced by the Egyptian sacred meal in which the god's blood is drunk.

07-08-2011, 01:32 PM	#36
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	The magical papyri that I have seen are collections of spells. The so-called Mithras liturgy is one of these. However it seems very doubtful that these texts relate in any real way to the cult of deities mentioned. Even the Jewish god is invoked in one of them. It seemed to me rather as if the deity names are given more as "power words" than in any normal context, but of course I might be mistaken. There is an English translation from 1904 of the London-Leiden papyrus referenced above here: http://hermetic.com/pgm/leiden.html and here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/dmp/index.htm The specific part is here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/dmp/dmp18.htm The tendency of the translators of the period to fall into pseudo-Jacobean English inevitably gave their versions a rather King James feel, but I suspect this is quite misleading. The papyrus roll itself is of the 3rd century A.D., or perhaps a little later. This means that it probably comes from the find of magical papyri at Thebes / Luxor during the early 19th century, which came into the hands of an adventurer calling himself Jean d'Anastasi, who seems to have been Armenian. This collection was probably found in the tomb of a scholar priest who collected them. Unfortunately the find was made by treasure-hunters and nothing is known about it. I found some details of our papyrus in Hans Dieter Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in translation, p.lv. It is listed as PGM XIV in the list of Greek magical texts. The larger part of it is in Leiden, (P. Lugd. Batav. J 383, formerly Anastasi 61), but the shorter opening section is in London (P. Lond. Demot. 10070, formerly Anastasi 1072). There are glosses in Greek letters, which provided an important aid to understanding demotic. Both the beginning and end are lost, but the preserved text of the roll consists of 29 large columns on the recto and 33 smaller columns on the verso. All are in Egyptian, except for three short passages in three different columns, written in Greek. Most of the Egyptian is in demotic, but there are frequent lapses into hieratic, as if the scribe was copying from an older manuscript, and there are also glosses in Old Coptic, usually to give magical names, and presumably to indicate pronunciation (difficult to do in older Egyptian alphabets). Each column of the recto is written within a frame of horizontal and vertical lines, and there are chapter headings in red ink (as in older Egyptian papyri). The same scribe also wrote PGM XII. All the best, Roger Pearse

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