Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JonA · 06-30-2011, 12:23 AM

I just finished reading Barrie Wilson's How Jesus Became Christian (or via: amazon.co.uk) (the book I've cited several times recently), and was interested in looking into a particular comment regarding Osiris and the Eucharist. Here it is in full:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Wilson in How Jesus Became Christian (2008):

The ceremony that Paul described and that Mark related, Maccoby contends, finds its natural home in a Hellenistic mystery religion environment. It was in that context—not a Jewish one—that participating in the body and blood of the divine-human made sense. These rites allowed the participant to become one with the savior, sharing in his power to save. Others have noted this, too, including Freke and Gandy, who have observed the following:
By partaking of the bread and wine offered by Jesus, his disciples symbolically eat his body and drink his blood, so communing with the Christ. The idea of divine communion through eating the god is a rite so ancient that it is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. ... Such a "holy communion" was also practiced in the Mysteries, as a means of becoming one with Osiris-Dionysus.
(pp. 161–162)

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

Luckily, I still have The Jesus Mysteries (or via: amazon.co.uk) checked out from the library, and so I was able to look to Freke and Gandy to see if I could get a reference to where in the Book of the Dead there are Eucharist-like ideas. Freke and Gandy write:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Freke & Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries (1999):

By partaking of the bread and wine offered by Jesus, his disciples symbolically eat his body and drink his blood, so communing with the Christ. The idea of divine communion through eating the god is a rite so ancient that it is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, in which the deceased are portrayed as eating the gods and so imbuing their powers. The ritual of eating and drinking the "body" and "blood" of Jesus is celebrated by Christians as the Eucharist. (p. 48)

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

I went to the back of the book to check their citation for this, but was dismayed to see that they made no reference to any actual texts from the Book of the Dead; instead they write:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Freke & Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries (1999):

Wallis Budge, E. A., Egyptian Religion, (1899), 172: "The ancient Egyptians believed that the deceased must eat the gods and so be imbued with their powers." (p. 267, note 176)

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

Unlike some of Budge's other works (one of which is actually a printing of the Egyptian Book of the Dead (or via: amazon.co.uk)), Egyptian Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk) doesn't appear freely available online, and so I cannot check what Budge says or whether he actually sourced his information from the Book of the Dead as Freke and Gandy claim. Thus, I will have to wait until I come across a copy of this work before being able to investigate the claim further on my own.

With this road closed, I decided to go searching through the Book of the Dead myself for some possibly confirming insights. This is not easy, though, and online text searches haven't revealed much. I went to Wikipedia hoping to get a better trace on the location of this sentiment in the BotD. No luck; just more assertions shrouded in trails of citations.

Is there anyone who might have a citation to texts actually written by the ancient Egyptians demonstrating that they really held the beliefs attributed to them by Freke and Gandy (and maybe Budge)?

I've just come up with nothing so far. :huh:

Jon
__________
Freke, T. & P. Gandy. (1999) The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? New York: Harmony Books.
Wilson, B. (2008) How Jesus Became Christian. New York: St. Martin's Press.

Toto · 06-30-2011, 01:09 AM

It is on google books, but there is no preview of p. 172

Anselm · 06-30-2011, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

...Is there anyone who might have a citation to texts actually written by the ancient Egyptians demonstrating that they really held the beliefs attributed to them by Freke and Gandy (and maybe Budge)?

I've just come up with nothing so far. :huh:

Jon

If you can get hold of this (which is a new edition of this), you might find what you're looking for. I'm guessing this is the same thing for sale at Abe Books.

JonA · 06-30-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anselm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

...Is there anyone who might have a citation to texts actually written by the ancient Egyptians demonstrating that they really held the beliefs attributed to them by Freke and Gandy (and maybe Budge)?

I've just come up with nothing so far. :huh:

Jon

If you can get hold of this (which is a new edition of this), you might find what you're looking for. I'm guessing this is the same thing for sale at Abe Books.

Thank you. I have a copy of Budge's printing of the Book of the Dead. I've looked through it some, but cannot find any reference to eating gods.

I am assuming that if such evidence is actually present, then those who present theories based on this evidence would be able to cite its location.

Am I assuming too much?

Jon

aa5874 · 06-30-2011, 09:17 AM

Well, Justin Martyr tell us what the Eucharist means to him and it is to "partake" of the body of the Lord.

"First Apology" LXVI

Quote:

.....And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.] ................. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done......... you either know or can learn.

The wicked devils made those who practised the ritual of Mithras eat and drink the body of Mithras long before Christians started to eat the body of Jesus Christ in the rirtual of the Eucharist based on Justin Martyr.

Roger Pearse · 06-30-2011, 09:30 AM

I think the answer is that modern reprinters have renamed the book. I find it called "Egyptian religion: Egyptian ideas of the future life" by some of them; and I find Budge, "Egyptian ideas of the future life" (1899) here. Page 172 appears to be what you are looking for.

Quote:

From what has been said above, it will be seen that there is no reason for doubting the antiquity of the Egyptian belief in the resurrection of the dead and in immortality, and the general evidence derived both from archaeological and religious considerations supports this view. As old, however, as this belief in general is the specific belief in a spiritual body (sah or Sahu); for we find it in texts of the Vth dynasty incorporated with ideas which belong to the pre-historic Egyptian in his savage or semi-savage state. One remarkable extract will prove this point. In the funeral chapters which are inscribed on the walls of the chambers and passages inside the pyramid of King Unas, who flourished at the end of the Vth dynasty, about B.C. 3300, is a passage in which the deceased king terrifies all the powers of heaven and earth because he "riseth as a soul (ba) in the form of the god who liveth upon his fathers and who maketh food of his mothers. Unas is the lord of wisdom and his mother knoweth not his name. He hath become mighty like unto the god Temu, the father who gave him birth, and after Temu gave him birth he became stronger than his father." The king is likened unto a Bull, and he feedeth upon every god, whatever may be the form in which he appeareth; "he hath weighed words with the god whose name is hidden," and he devoureth men and liveth upon gods. The dead king is then said to set out to hunt the gods in their meadows, and when he has caught them with nooses, he causes them to be slain. They are next cooked in blazing cauldrons, the greatest for his morning meal, the lesser for his evening meal, and the least for his midnight meal; the old gods and goddesses serve as fuel for his cooking pots. In this way, having swallowed the magical powers and spirits of the gods, he becomes the Great Power of Powers among the gods, and the greatest of the gods who appear in visible forms. "Whatever he hath found upon his path he hath consumed, and his strength is greater than that of any spiritual body (sahu) in the horizon; he is the firstborn of all the firstborn, and ... he hath carried off the hearts of the gods. . . . He hath eaten the wisdom of every god, and his period of existence is everlasting, and his life shall be unto all eternity, ... for the souls and the spirits of the gods are in him."

We have, it is clear, in this passage an allusion to the custom of savages of all nations and periods, of eating portions of the bodies of valiant foes whom they have vanquished in war in order to absorb their virtues and strength; the same habit has also obtained in some places in respect of animals. In the case of the gods...

It looks as if he is quoting from texts on the walls of the pyramid of Unas. Not sure whether this helps or hinders the argument, but should allow it to proceed.

Freke and Gandy probably believe that any reference to eating anywhere in mythology "must" prove that Christians copied said reference from some older source.

Off to eat!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 06-30-2011, 12:07 PM

Just continuing:

Quote:

In the case of the gods, the deceased is made to covet their one peculiar attribute, that is to say, everlasting life; and when he has absorbed their souls and spirits he is declared to have obtained all that makes him superior to every other spiritual body in strength and in length of life. The "magical powers" (heka), which the king is also said to have "eaten," are the words and formulae, the utterance of which by him, in whatever circumstances he may be placed, will cause every being, friendly or unfriendly, to do his will. But apart from any question of the slaughter of the gods the Egyptians declared of this same king, "Behold, thou hast not gone as one dead, but as one living, to sit upon the throne of Osiris;"[1] and in a papyrus written nearly two thousand years later the deceased himself says, "My soul is God, my soul is eternity,"[2] a clear proof that the ideas of the existence of God and of eternity were identical. Yet one other example is worth quoting, if only to show the care that the writers of religious texts took to impress the immortality of the soul upon their readers. According to Chapter CLXXV. of the Book of the Dead the deceased finds himself in a place where there is neither water nor air, and where "it is depth unfathomable, it is black as the blackest night, and men wander helplessly therein. In it a man may not live in quietness of heart, nor may the longings of love be satisfied therein.

1 Recueil de Travaux, tom. v. p. 167 (1. 65).

2 Papyrus of Ani, Plate 28, 1. 15 (Chapter lxxxiv.).

Doug Shaver · 07-01-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Freke and Gandy probably believe that any reference to eating anywhere in mythology "must" prove that Christians copied said reference from some older source.

I have no idea what Freke and Gandy might have been thinking, since I have not yet read any of their work. But if, during the first century, the notion was in the air that it was possible to acquire someone's attributes by making a meal out of him, then we have a sufficient explanation for the ritual of the Eucharist. In that case we do not need to assume either a historical Last Supper or any early Christian's direct acquaintance with the writings of any particular predecessor religion.

JonA · 07-01-2011, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Freke and Gandy probably believe that any reference to eating anywhere in mythology "must" prove that Christians copied said reference from some older source.

I have no idea what Freke and Gandy might have been thinking, since I have not yet read any of their work. But if, during the first century, the notion was in the air that it was possible to acquire someone's attributes by making a meal out of him, then we have a sufficient explanation for the ritual of the Eucharist. In that case we do not need to assume either a historical Last Supper or any early Christian's direct acquaintance with the writings of any particular predecessor religion.

But writings are all we have.

The air and everything that was in it has gone.

If the writings don't support the idea that the Egyptians held Eucharist-like beliefs, then how can we get to the point of saying that during the first century such notions were in the air?

Jon

JonA · 07-01-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I think the answer is that modern reprinters have renamed the book. I find it called "Egyptian religion: Egyptian ideas of the future life" by some of them; and I find Budge, "Egyptian ideas of the future life" (1899) here. Page 172 appears to be what you are looking for.

...

It looks as if he is quoting from texts on the walls of the pyramid of Unas. Not sure whether this helps or hinders the argument, but should allow it to proceed.

Freke and Gandy probably believe that any reference to eating anywhere in mythology "must" prove that Christians copied said reference from some older source.

Thank you, Mr. Pearse. I'm looking through the book you linked to and am trying to find the exact reference Freke and Gandy give. I used Google Books' text search to look for the passage in Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life, Egyptian Religion (found on non-English Google: link), and Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life as found on Project Gutenberg with no luck. I did a Google search for the exact quote with one of only two results being a link to Freke and Gandy! (The other was a link to someone referencing Freke and Gandy.)

Is this quote substantiated outside of Freke and Gandy? Can we find Budge saying anywhere that "[t]he ancient Egyptians believed that the deceased must eat the gods and so be imbued with their powers."?

Can we find this notion recorded in the Book of the Dead? Anywhere in Egyptian religious texts?

Jon

06-30-2011, 12:23 AM	#1
JonA Regular Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Minnesota! Posts: 386	Eucharist & the Book of the Dead I just finished reading Barrie Wilson's How Jesus Became Christian (or via: amazon.co.uk) (the book I've cited several times recently), and was interested in looking into a particular comment regarding Osiris and the Eucharist. Here it is in full: [HR="1"]100[/HR] Wilson in How Jesus Became Christian (2008): The ceremony that Paul described and that Mark related, Maccoby contends, finds its natural home in a Hellenistic mystery religion environment. It was in that context—not a Jewish one—that participating in the body and blood of the divine-human made sense. These rites allowed the participant to become one with the savior, sharing in his power to save. Others have noted this, too, including Freke and Gandy, who have observed the following: By partaking of the bread and wine offered by Jesus, his disciples symbolically eat his body and drink his blood, so communing with the Christ. The idea of divine communion through eating the god is a rite so ancient that it is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. ... Such a "holy communion" was also practiced in the Mysteries, as a means of becoming one with Osiris-Dionysus. (pp. 161–162) [HR="1"]100[/HR] Luckily, I still have The Jesus Mysteries (or via: amazon.co.uk) checked out from the library, and so I was able to look to Freke and Gandy to see if I could get a reference to where in the Book of the Dead there are Eucharist-like ideas. Freke and Gandy write: [HR="1"]100[/HR] Freke & Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries (1999): By partaking of the bread and wine offered by Jesus, his disciples symbolically eat his body and drink his blood, so communing with the Christ. The idea of divine communion through eating the god is a rite so ancient that it is found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, in which the deceased are portrayed as eating the gods and so imbuing their powers. The ritual of eating and drinking the "body" and "blood" of Jesus is celebrated by Christians as the Eucharist. (p. 48) [HR="1"]100[/HR] I went to the back of the book to check their citation for this, but was dismayed to see that they made no reference to any actual texts from the Book of the Dead; instead they write: [HR="1"]100[/HR] Freke & Gandy in The Jesus Mysteries (1999): Wallis Budge, E. A., Egyptian Religion, (1899), 172: "The ancient Egyptians believed that the deceased must eat the gods and so be imbued with their powers." (p. 267, note 176) [HR="1"]100[/HR] Unlike some of Budge's other works (one of which is actually a printing of the Egyptian Book of the Dead (or via: amazon.co.uk)), Egyptian Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk) doesn't appear freely available online, and so I cannot check what Budge says or whether he actually sourced his information from the Book of the Dead as Freke and Gandy claim. Thus, I will have to wait until I come across a copy of this work before being able to investigate the claim further on my own. With this road closed, I decided to go searching through the Book of the Dead myself for some possibly confirming insights. This is not easy, though, and online text searches haven't revealed much. I went to Wikipedia hoping to get a better trace on the location of this sentiment in the BotD. No luck; just more assertions shrouded in trails of citations. Is there anyone who might have a citation to texts actually written by the ancient Egyptians demonstrating that they really held the beliefs attributed to them by Freke and Gandy (and maybe Budge)? I've just come up with nothing so far. :huh: Jon __________ Freke, T. & P. Gandy. (1999) The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? New York: Harmony Books. Wilson, B. (2008) How Jesus Became Christian. New York: St. Martin's Press.

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06-30-2011, 01:09 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It is on google books, but there is no preview of p. 172

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