Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 01-07-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

People change, down the line one day you may pluck out your eye, or slit your wrists, or perhaps jump off a cliff....people with freewill can change.

To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants.

According to this line of thinking, people in Heaven can still sin too. Since it is possible to sin in heaven, given an eternity, it is certain that everyone will, including you.

SeekingKnowledge · 01-07-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

In your above statement... This is what you and I call free will, yes? If your God allows me to have this free will, why does he interfere with peoples free will so much in the bible?

God interferes to accomplish His purposes and this entails that He interfere in the willful actions of only the elect. Others, God can leave alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingKnowledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

God interferes to accomplish His purposes and this entails that He interfere in the willful actions of only the elect. Others, God can leave alone.

But if God has the ability to counteract my free will, the he didn't ever really give me free will did he?
You are explaining a God who has, in a sense, went through and set up this extremely elaborate cosmic Rube Goldberg machine, and now he is just sitting back watching it unfold. There is no free will for the cogs in that wheel.

The logic is flawed. If your Christian god does exist, he isn't at all like you expect him. You are fighting a losing war on logic and reasoning. If I was a little more educated (and not posting from an iPhone) I would go back through and banter with you further, but for now I will leave it at this.

I have pointed to one of many flaws in your archaic logic.. A fundamental flaw in the construction of anything denotes instability.

Pretzel logic doesn't change reality.

Living in a fantasy world won't further the advancement of our species, and neither will particular translations of passages(literal or otherwise) of an ancient letter or story.

All history needs to have equal weight for what it's worth.. Or it's doomed to be repeated. And we don't need another inquisition of you or me. And we are getting ready to have a Jihad, at least here in America, or so it would seem. Religion helped highten our intellect exponentially years ago and deserves it's credit for that, but our species is past that.

At least, If we can't get past it, we are doomed.. Agreed?

I am not a fan of quoting myself, but rhutchin asked... Questions are in italics..

sugarhitman · 01-07-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

People change, down the line one day you may pluck out your eye, or slit your wrists, or perhaps jump off a cliff....people with freewill can change.

To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants.

According to this line of thinking, people in Heaven can still sin too. Since it is possible to sin in heaven, given an eternity, it is certain that everyone will, including you.

Possible yes, but noone will because all will know that God is just, so there will be no need for another rebellion to prove that God is unjust or evil which is at the core of Satan's war.

Everyone left in heaven (well actually the new earth) will both love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin.

bacht · 01-07-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

People change, down the line one day you may pluck out your eye, or slit your wrists, or perhaps jump off a cliff....people with freewill can change.

To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants.

According to this line of thinking, people in Heaven can still sin too. Since it is possible to sin in heaven, given an eternity, it is certain that everyone will, including you.

Yeah, what about those angels with Satan who rebelled against God?

Stephen T-B · 01-07-2009, 12:16 PM

"To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants." (sugarhitman)

Oh?
And how do you know?

I wonder to what extent sugarhitman has free will.

Can he leap from a sixth floor window and fly?
Can he run at 30mph?
Can he compose a symphony, become a brain surgeon, walk through walls?

More to the point, can he choose to do something - anything - which he is as certain as he can be will impose a cost which outweighs any possible benefit?
Can he do something - anything - which he is as certain as he can be has absolutely no benefit whatsoever when an alternative course of action promises even a very little benefit? (An example: he has three routes home from his work; if he thinks about it, why does he choose one rather than the others. Does his calculate - however briefly and superficially - that it is has some advantage on that one particular occasion? Why would he ever choose the one route which offers absolutely no advantage - or possibly a disadvantage?)

Does the "free will" his god wants us to have mean being free to toss a coin when confronted by choices which offer no obvious advantages?

Stephen T-B · 01-07-2009, 12:22 PM

"Everyone left in heaven (well actually the new earth) will both love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin." (sugarhitman)

Why?
Is that because their human nature will have died with their corporeal bodies?

sugarhitman · 01-07-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

"Everyone left in heaven (well actually the new earth) will both love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin." (sugarhitman)

Why?
Is that because their human nature will have died with their corporeal bodies?

The logic of the skeptics is losing steam.

The Dagda · 01-07-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

According to this line of thinking, people in Heaven can still sin too. Since it is possible to sin in heaven, given an eternity, it is certain that everyone will, including you.

Possible yes, but noone will because all will know that God is just, so there will be no need for another rebellion to prove that God is unjust or evil which is at the core of Satan's war.

Everyone left in heaven (well actually the new earth) will both love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin.

The only problem is God is omniscient why did he create angels which he knew would rebel against him? Seems like a pretty dumb thing for an all knowing God to do?

Stephen T-B · 01-07-2009, 01:09 PM

"The logic of the skeptics is losing steam." (sugarhitman)

Does that mean he believes it is within human nature to "love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin"?

juergen · 01-07-2009, 06:02 PM

If Satan was created good, who tempted him?

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01-07-2009, 12:16 PM	#245
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"To create one with a nature to obey is not freewill and that is not what God wants." (sugarhitman) Oh? And how do you know? I wonder to what extent sugarhitman has free will. Can he leap from a sixth floor window and fly? Can he run at 30mph? Can he compose a symphony, become a brain surgeon, walk through walls? More to the point, can he choose to do something - anything - which he is as certain as he can be will impose a cost which outweighs any possible benefit? Can he do something - anything - which he is as certain as he can be has absolutely no benefit whatsoever when an alternative course of action promises even a very little benefit? (An example: he has three routes home from his work; if he thinks about it, why does he choose one rather than the others. Does his calculate - however briefly and superficially - that it is has some advantage on that one particular occasion? Why would he ever choose the one route which offers absolutely no advantage - or possibly a disadvantage?) Does the "free will" his god wants us to have mean being free to toss a coin when confronted by choices which offer no obvious advantages?

01-07-2009, 12:22 PM	#246
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"Everyone left in heaven (well actually the new earth) will both love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin." (sugarhitman) Why? Is that because their human nature will have died with their corporeal bodies?

01-07-2009, 01:09 PM	#249
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	"The logic of the skeptics is losing steam." (sugarhitman) Does that mean he believes it is within human nature to "love and honor God for all eternity, and love each other no discord no rebellion....no sin"?

01-07-2009, 06:02 PM	#250
juergen Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: South America Posts: 1,856	If Satan was created good, who tempted him?

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