lycanthrope

Hi all,

My church which follows a protestant doctrines believes strongly in the rapture which is supposedly the Lord coming back on earth to recieve up his believers in the air. After which the earth will be engulfed in hardship and death on an unimaginable scale (great tribulation). There are variations of this belief some say the rapture occurs after the tribulations, some say before.

Personally, I feel that there is something terribly wrong with this doctrine which I cant put my finger on but I think Sam Harris has the same ideas as me in which he stated in his book Letters to A Christian Nation "Is is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver-lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen: the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves - socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically. Imagine the consequences if any significant component of the US government actually believed that the world was about to end and that its ending would be glorious..."

For those who are well skilled in the doctrine of the rapture, what do you think of it? A case of wishful thinking? Or anachronism?

Jeffrey Gibson

To get your bearings here, have a look at James M. Efird, End-Times: Rapture, Antichrist, Millennium (Abingdon). and In God's Time: The Bible and the Future by Craig C. Hil.

For an analysis of the Left Behind Series, see Barbara Rossing, The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk) .

And of course you should consult a good commentary on the Thessalonian correspondence such as The Letters to the Thessalonians: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Anchor Bible) by Abraham J. Malherbe.

Jeffrey

sugarhitman

Most christians believe that they will be raptured before the anti christ arises, however this can be easily disproved. In Rev. 11 The two witnesses (Israel that includes Gentile converts) gives their testimony for 3 1/2 years and at the end of this testimony "the beast that rises from the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them and kill them" also this killing (persecution) endures for 3 1/2 years...."nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half (3 1/2 years) and will not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves." Verses 11 and 12 clearly proves that the rapture happens afterwards: "And after three days and an half the SPIRIT OF LIFE FROM GOD ENTERED INTO THEM, and they stood on their feet.....and they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HERE. AND THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD; AND THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM."

Also after this event a great earthquake happens in Jerusalem, followed by the return of Christ. (verse 15): ....the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and His Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."



Christians have been misled as to who are the two witnesses thanks to those popular "Left Behind" books. Who are the Two Witnesses? How do we get the answer? Revelations is the Unsealed Book of Daniel and he makes clear as to who the Beast make war against...."The Mighty and The Holy People" this is Israel.


One reason for this incorrect view is due to Replacement Theology that holds that God has replaced Israel with the church....nothing can be further from the truth....Israel is the Church. Jesus returns ONCE to save Israel and Gentile converts who are "grafted in branches" of the nation of Israel. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus separates believers from "the house of Israel" and nowhere is found Jesus making two trips saving two groups.


Hopes this helps.

RareBird

It's a figment of "faith lore" that comes from a human-centric view of the universe. Apparently, we are the center and reason for everything and therefore imagine scenarios which support human-centric beginnings and endings to the universe with human-like "god" figures presiding over the concoction. IMO it ought to become a crime to indoctrinate any child with this ancient hysterical lunacy which ignores evident reality that we are not the "center" or reason for the universe and it was around long, long, long before we came and will continue regardless of whether we die off.

Elijah

The rapture nuts are what I’m more familiar with then the conservative literalist Christians that are the main focus around here. I find the whole rapture idea morally bankrupt and retarded. Any Christian who would leave their fellow man to suffer on earth while they go off to some magical happy land isn’t worthy of being called Christian. It’s those kinds of stupid elitist concepts in the religion that takes away any credibility the faith may have.

Baalazel

Why is it Christians never ask why there should be any need for a "Second Coming'? There is no explanation in the NT for either Jesus returning to Heaven or his supposed return to Earth. The NT was written for no purpose other than to provide some reason why the central figure of the new religion no longer existed and even then it fails to provide a plausible explanation. To claim that he exists in Heaven and intends someday to return is implausible and unbelievable.


Baal

sugarhitman

Theres a simple answer for this as well....Israel. The nation of Israel could not receive the Messianic promises because Israel as a nation did not repent nor receive the Messiah. Thus Jesus's words words before he departed "You shall not see me again until you say BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Israel's repentance and the return of Christ are related.

Elijah

Now the rapture is nuts to me but the second coming I can accept. It’s not like you need to believe in magic in order to believe in the possibility of eternal life or a resurrection of the dead anymore, just the natural progress of technology in the future. And you know that he is going to be one of the first they bring back just to settle the argument his life caused.

From Jesus’ POV the new age/day wasn’t going to begin until the rulers of man were removed from the world. When enough people worshiped the dead king the living kings would be no more and that would lead to a new age of eternal life and a resurrection of the dead.

DCHindley

I am also quite familiar with rapture theology from my misspent youth.

One has to make a distinction between the eschatological beliefs of the authors of the NT books and other early Christian and intertestamental Jewish literature, that of the Roman Catholic church over the centuries, and finally that of more or less modern Christians, especially Protestants.

There are also issues, such as the influence of Darbyite dispensationalism, the establishment of "Godless Communism" and the U.S.S.R., the European Union, and the circumstances related to the formation and history of the modern nation of Israel, that affect modern eschatological beliefs.

Even when one considers the "sources" themselves, such as the "little apocalypse" of the gospels (Mt 24:4-36; Mk 13:5-37; Lk 21:8-36), the Revelation of John, and perhaps the beliefs about end times related in 1 Th 4:13-18; 5:1-10; and 2 Th 2:3-13, one must keep in mind that these represent prophesies and predictions from popular Jewish and Hellenistic culture, perhaps some from Jesus himself, as well as other figures related to early Christian formation, that were likely refashioned and reinterpreted at least once by the time we read them in the NT and elsewhere.

Finally, there are numerous passages in the OT that could be taken as yet-unfulfilled "prophesies". I have read through all the OT books many times and underlined these passages, which are pretty much the same ones that you'd find in a book such as John Walvoord's Major Bible Prophesies (Zondervan, 1991). A lot of these are either unfulfilled predictions the failure of which are deflected by being reinterpreted to refer to yet future events, and others are statements that actually happened as indicated, but are later, pesher-like, taken to have double meanings, some of which are relevant for some later time or times.

DCH

lycanthrope

The thing is my church people happily quotes some verses that seemingly talks about the 2nd coming and the rapture. I feel that these same verses may have a double meaning but my bible skills are not good enough to deal with it indepth and hence I am asking around on the forum to see if anyone knows the following:

1) What are the verses that most christians used to support the idea of rapture and 2nd coming?

2) How did they determine it to mean the present age and the end of the world?

3) What counter arguments is there to counter this rather pernicious doctrines?

Thanks