Jabu Khan

Can stories like that of Abraham and Isaac or the apostles really be used as examples of faith? I ask because these individuals actually witnessed the presence or miracles of the almighty according to scriptures. Therefore I can't see there actions or beliefs as signs of faith since they witnessed privledged examples of divine power.

Vinnie

Short answer:

If faith is blind belief: no.

If faith is not blind belief: yes.

Vinnie

seebs

It's an interesting question. In the sense that faith is often used, they aren't really examples of faith. On the other hand, you can just move the claims around; Abraham may not have needed "faith" that "something really weird is up", but he had faith that there was a being behind it, that the being was essentially benevolent, and so on.

Eric H

Hello Jabu Khan,

The only way to know you have faith is when it is tested and proven.

As the Bible says Abraham walked with God, and so needed no proof of God’s existence.

God wanted great things from Abraham and so tested his faith in an extreme way by asking Abraham to sacrifice his only son.

Abraham took a knife to kill his son, and when the Lord saw Abraham do this he then stopped him from killing his son.

I feel that the very definition of faith is a test of trust and going beyond what we feel comfortable with.

Peace

Eric

Mageth

If faith can lead one to kill one's own son (whether carried through or not) at the behest of the object of faith, then screw it.

that the being was essentially benevolent

How Abraham could reach that conclusion about a God that tested his faith by "asking" him to kill his own son, I don't know.

Amlodhi

According to the text, God appeared and spoke directly to Abraham. Not to mention that when God told Abraham that he would get a son of Sarai (Sarah), "Abraham fell on his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, 'shall a child be born to him that is an hundred years old?' . . . (Gen. 17:17)

Consider also John the Baptist who according to the gospels leaped for joy in Elisabeth's womb in recognition of the Messiah still in Mary's womb. (Lk. 1:41,44) Then later proclaims the approach of Jesus with, "Behold, the Lamb of God . . ." (Jn 1:28).

And yet, when imprisoned, John wonders whether Jesus is the Messiah.

So Abraham falls on his face and laughs at the words spoken directly to him by God; and John, who does a pre-natal leap of joy in recognition of Jesus, later lacks faith.


(Luke 16:31) ". . . If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

The above verse is often cited in defense of faith, and yet:

(John 20:29) "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed . . ."

(John 11:41-43) "Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. (42) And I knew that thou hearest me always; but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me ." (43) And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."


Thus, it would seem that while "seeing" is (to some extent) believing, even "seeing" did not always result in complete faith.

What confidence then, can be put in a "faith" that relies on nothing more than the unverifiable words of men?


Namaste'

Amlodhi

seebs

Perhaps Abraham was testing God.

If someone I trust tells me to do something that *seems* to me as though it would harm me or mine, but I trust that person very much, I might go along with it, trusting that person's judgment. That would be faith.

seebs

I think you have it backwards.

Doubt is not the absence of faith; doubt is the context within which "faith" means anything.

We don't generally speak of having "faith" in simple, empirical, claims. Faith is in things unseen.

Mageth

Originally posted by seebs
Perhaps Abraham was testing God.

I doubt it. God never seemed to have much difficulty killing sons or telling other people to kill sons for him throughout the Bible.

Besides, God doesn't seem to like being tested. If Abraham was testing God, God would probably have let him kill Isaac or, if he didn't, killed Isaac himself.

If someone I trust tells me to do something that *seems* to me as though it would harm me or mine, but I trust that person very much, I might go along with it, trusting that person's judgment. That would be faith.

Why is it not just "trust", based on your knowledge of the other person?

In any case, there's a point beyond which trust in anyone shouldn't go. E.g. if that someone tells you "trust me - kill your son".

seebs

Perhaps. It's an interesting exercise in psychology.

I'm not sure exactly where I'd draw the line.

Trust is a kind of faith, so far as I can tell. I can't see what exactly you consider to be the difference.