Johann_Kaspar

How is that Josephus did not know about the gospels? Nor about Paul or Paul's "congregation" or literature? How is that his notice about the Essenes is not complete, the most interesting part concerning the different parties or groups within the Essenes being missing?

rlogan

They didn't exist


starting to wonder about this too.

Johann_Kaspar

Did you know that late French author Dubourg was thinking that Paul as well as Yesua is a literature character? He has some good points about it.

the_cave

? Well, first of all, not even Paul claims he had much of a career in Judea.

But secondly, how come Josephus is suddenly the sole arbiter of anything that happened in Judea during the time he wrote? I mean, I read the paper every day. No mention of the_cave and his brilliant career on iidb.com...gosh, I must not exist.

I can think of many religious, philosophical, and localized social movements of recent decades, none of which have been documented in any major chronicles of the current era. Again, we are talking about a single historian. Who on earth is to say he knew all there was to know about Judea?

Roland

The Gospel of Luke, in particular, makes it clear that all Jerusalem is abuzz about what has taken place on Easter weekend.

Christians try to have it both ways. They want to use the fact of Christianity's widescale acceptance as testament to its likelihood as historical fact, yet, when confronted with the paucity of extrabiblical sources confirming its existence, they use the "why would anyone acknowledge such a small event occurring in a backwater of the Roman Empire" argument.

Johann_Kaspar

Well the problem is that xian scribes kept only Josephus works... Where are the works of Justus and Papias to name just two authors much much worth reading for sure. But thanks to the xian it seems no longer possible...

Johann_Kaspar

Correct.

How is that a king of Israël being crucified and Josephus would not even mention it........? No way.

There are two solutions:
1) either everything about Yeshu is literature,
2) or he was a real man wanting to restore the independance of Israel. And xians making out of a warrior a prince of love an peace :boohoo: deleted everything they could find about the historical Yeshu.

According to Daniel Massé Yeshu was the son of Juda the Gaulonite and his brothers were Simon and James who were also crucified. Guess now how acts see the end of those two brothers!

I think that both options are still undecided. There is only one thing quite sure: the xian BS. And as biblical studies are done at 90% by xian scholars...

the_cave

I was speaking of Paul. But now that you mention it, I don't think we're debating a literal interpretation of the gospel here--we're asking whether it reflects historical events in any way.

rlogan

Cave -

Nobody is arguing that he is. There isn't a single extrabiblical reference to Paul. Zero. At least James and Jesus got interpolations in Josephus.

Since Josephus wrote "History of the Jews", and since he talks about the different religious sects and leaders - it is not extraordinary to wonder why he does not talk about this sect and its leaders.

Roland -
Yup. That puny Jewish temple down in the swamp.

Johann -

Not familiar with this author. We do know half of the purported Pauline letters are frauds. Could there be more?

I don't know enough to advance an argument one way or the other.

spin

How about a reconstruction of Paul's original Galatians, based on the scattered evidence of Marcion's version?
Here. This is a complex serious effort.


spin