Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 03-06-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, in which century was the name of Jesus symbolic and what did a crucified blasphemer represent?

The name 'jesus' literally means "YHWH' saves" in Hebrew, which exactly mirrors his role. The name is explained by the fact that it exactly fits the character's role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You keep forgetting that the strata you see in the document is fiction, just like the strata you see in the Gospels.

I'm asking you to explain why the authors would fill the texts with redactions that give the appearance of age only when viewed through modern textual analysis that did not exist at the time the texts were written.

"because it's fiction" is not even a half hearted attempt to explain this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Were there any analytical tools to detect the veracity of the religion started by Joseph Smith in the 19th century or the religion started by Muhammad around the 7th century? Or did they expect these tools to cause them to end up like David Koresh or Jim Jones?

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean. Let's stay focused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Religions depend on believers and believers do not believe that they have been fooled as long as they live until they become non-believers.

I have to wonder if you even know what I'm talking about when I refer to the strata.

spamandham · 03-06-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

POL is an abbreviated form of Apollonius. It is a play on words so that those who knew and understood that that there once was a real live philosopher and sage, journeyer, author, and a known writer of letters (and the subject of collections of letters) called Apollonius, would have a peg to hang their hat upon. Paul is a literary fabrication of the historical Apollonius, the neopythagorean healer and holy man, and follower of the (pagan) Logos.

It's an interesting idea. What do you base it on?

mountainman · 03-06-2008, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

POL is an abbreviated form of Apollonius. It is a play on words so that those who knew and understood that that there once was a real live philosopher and sage, journeyer, author, and a known writer of letters (and the subject of collections of letters) called Apollonius, would have a peg to hang their hat upon. Paul is a literary fabrication of the historical Apollonius, the neopythagorean healer and holy man, and follower of the (pagan) Logos.

It's an interesting idea. What do you base it on?

The textual evidence for Apollonius and
the monumental evidence for Apollonius:

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

aa5874 · 03-06-2008, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, in which century was the name of Jesus symbolic and what did a crucified blasphemer represent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

The name 'jesus' literally means "YHWH' saves" in Hebrew, which exactly mirrors his role. The name is explained by the fact that it exactly fits the character's role.

You confuse the meaning of a name with character. A person called Jesus could have been a madman, a robber, a wicked man or a blasphemer. A person's name is not a good indicator of their character.

In the writings of Josephus, he clearly wrote that there were persons named Jesus who were characterised from madmen to robbers.

This a Jesus in the "Life of Josephus" 22

Quote:

Accordingly they sent to Jesus, the captain of a band of robbers...

"Life of Josephus 27":

Quote:

....and it was Jesus, the son of Sapphias, who principally set them on. He was a wicked man.....a seditious person he was indeed.....

In which century did YHWH (Jesus) save Paul, was a symbolic Saviour or represented Salvation? And which audience saw Jesus, the disciples and Paul?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I'm asking you to explain why the authors would fill the texts with redactions that give the appearance of age only when viewed through modern textual analysis that did not exist at the time the texts were written.

You must explain what you see. If you see redactions then you explain redactions. I see fiction, that's all I can explain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I have to wonder if you even know what I'm talking about when I refer to the strata.

You're right, I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to "strata". Explain "strata". I see fiction in the NT, but you see "strata".

spamandham · 03-07-2008, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

It's an interesting idea. What do you base it on?

The textual evidence for Apollonius and
the monumental evidence for Apollonius:

I wasn't clear. What I meant was, what is the basis for linking POL from Apollonius to Paul?

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-07-2008, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The textual evidence for Apollonius and
the monumental evidence for Apollonius:

I wasn't clear. What I meant was, what is the basis for linking POL from Apollonius to Paul?

Even more importantly, what is the basis for claiming -- let alone the evidence that supports the claim -- that POL (presumably pi omicron lambda, or is it pi omega lambda?) is a known (and early?) abbreviation for Apollonius of Tyana?

Jeffrey

spamandham · 03-07-2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You confuse the meaning of a name with character. A person called Jesus could have been a madman, a robber, a wicked man or a blasphemer. A person's name is not a good indicator of their character.

What you're saying would be true if Jesus had been a real person. We both agree he was fictional. For a fictional character, in an age where names were not just labels such as today but rather had actual meanings, it makes a lot of sense to assign a name to a fictional character that reflects who that character is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In the writings of Josephus, he clearly wrote that there were persons named Jesus who were characterised from madmen to robbers.

That has no relevence to the fictional gospel Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You must explain what you see. If you see redactions then you explain redactions. I see fiction, that's all I can explain.

...at least mountainman recognizes the strata are really there and has an explanation for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You're right, I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to "strata". Explain "strata". I see fiction in the NT, but you see "strata".

This is a demonstration of the difficulty of recognizing the layers of redaction without the use of modern analytical tools. Even moderns don't notice it from a casual read. Are we to think that ancients would have? No. So why are the layers there then? The only plausible explanation, is that the texts really were edited over time.

aa5874 · 03-07-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You confuse the meaning of a name with character. A person called Jesus could have been a madman, a robber, a wicked man or a blasphemer. A person's name is not a good indicator of their character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

What you're saying would be true if Jesus had been a real person. We both agree he was fictional. For a fictional character, in an age where names were not just labels such as today but rather had actual meanings, it makes a lot of sense to assign a name to a fictional character that reflects who that character is.

No, it is you who claimed the name Jesus was symbolic of what he represents. I am the one who pointed out to you that the name Jesus could have been represented as a robber and a wicked man.

So, in the 1st century, using Josephus as a guide, the name Jesus could have symbolised or represented any assorted criminal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

...at least mountainman recognizes the strata are really there and has an explanation for it.

It is not what mountainman calls "strata", it is what you call "strata".
Your "strata" looks like fiction to me and is better explained by your imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You're right, I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to "strata". Explain "strata". I see fiction in the NT, but you see "strata".

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

This is a demonstration of the difficulty of recognizing the layers of redaction without the use of modern analytical tools. Even moderns don't notice it from a casual read. Are we to think that ancients would have? No. So why are the layers there then? The only plausible explanation, is that the texts really were edited over time.

So, when was the first chapter of Galations written, in the 4th century and what about 2 Corinthians 11 was that written after Philemon in th 4th century?

What layers of redaction are you talking about? Who wrote what, when, where, how and why?

The NT is just a pile of fiction.

mountainman · 03-07-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The textual evidence for Apollonius and
the monumental evidence for Apollonius:

I wasn't clear. What I meant was, what is the basis for linking POL from Apollonius to Paul?

There is an extendible list of references which I should gather up, but for the moment .....

This Paul and Apollonius - is there a relationship? from IIDB (2003)

Agnostos Theos by Eduard Norden
Author(s) of Review: Ralph Hermon Tukey
The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 35, No. 1 (1914), pp. 81-87
doi:10.2307/289207
This article consists of 7 page(s).

Hagiographic Geography: Travel and Allegory in the Life of Apollonius of Tyana
John Elsner
The Journal of Hellenic Studies, Vol. 117, 1997 (1997), pp. 22-37
doi:10.2307/632548
This article consists of 16 page(s).

more from google Paul and Apollonius

This list is a start only.

Best wishes

Pete Brown

mountainman · 03-07-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

I wasn't clear. What I meant was, what is the basis for linking POL from Apollonius to Paul?

Even more importantly, what is the basis for claiming -- let alone the evidence that supports the claim -- that POL (presumably pi omicron lambda, or is it pi omega lambda?) is a known (and early?) abbreviation for Apollonius of Tyana?

This claim has been made in:

Apollonius of Tyana the Nazarene
by Dr. R. W. Bernard (1964)
Part 3: The Controversy Between Adherents of Apollonius and Jesus

Quote:

Concerning the identity of Apollonius and Paul ["Pol", an abbreviation of Apollonius), not only were they both in Tarsus at the same time as boys, but, as Newman points out, Apollonius was at Ephesus and Rome at EXACTLY the same time that Paul was (yet, strangely, Apollonius's biographer makes no mention of him, though Paul's biographer speaks of "Apollos" having been at Ephesus with him). Also it is significant that "Paul" is a fictitious name. There is more reason to identify the character of Apollonius with Paul than "Saul," who led a dissipated life, while Apollonius - even in youth, lived chastely.

and

Quote:

In a very ancient manuscript of this Epistle, found in a monastery in France by a Huegenot soldier, called the CODEX BEZAE, the name is spelled not Apollos but APOLLONIUS. As has already been indicated, the Encyclopedia Britannica admits that the name, Apollos, as it appears in the Pauline Epistles, is an abbreviation of Apollonius.**

**But even this positive clue to the identity of Apollonius with the St. Paul of the Christians was attempted to be obliterated by substituting "Apollos" for Apollonius, as it originally stood. This studied avoidance of all mention of Apollonius in the Christian Scriptures is positive proof that his recognition, in any way, by the authors of Christianity, would be fatal to their scheme of deception and fraud. We Wonder they had not the cunning to obliterate that one reference to the preaching and teaching of Apollonius, and the admission that his teaching was in perfect accord with the teachings attributed to St. Paul.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

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