Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

There is no evidence whatsoever that Ezekiel prophesied (i.e. predicted in advance) that Tyre would be attacked by Nebby (because we don't actually know when Ezekiel started writing about Tyre). In fact, Tyre was attacked by Nebby, but pretty much everything went off the rails after that point.

I notice that you can't even make up your own mind about who finally "fulfilled the prophecy". Now you're abandoning Alex and going back to Nebby again?

Rubbish. Y'all have a lame argument on the Daniel thread that it was written between 167-164 to give encouragment to the Jews at the time who were in a war. By using this twisted logic Zekey prophesied that both Tyre and Jerusalem would fall and they both did. These populations went into exile in Babylon. Prophecy fulfilled. :wave: ( that is if your not obsessive compulsive about walls and streets of Tyre)

Uh, you seem to be hallucinating again. The population of Tyre wasn't taken to Babylon (and nor was most of the population of Jerusalem), and you have, as usual, completely ignored the actual issues regarding the dating of Daniel.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Rubbish. Y'all have a lame argument on the Daniel thread that it was written between 167-164 to give encouragment to the Jews at the time who were in a war. By using this twisted logic Zekey prophesied that both Tyre and Jerusalem would fall and they both did. These populations went into exile in Babylon. Prophecy fulfilled. :wave: ( that is if your not obsessive compulsive about walls and streets of Tyre)

Uh, you seem to be hallucinating again. The population of Tyre wasn't taken to Babylon (and nor was most of the population of Jerusalem), and you have, as usual, completely ignored the actual issues regarding the dating of Daniel.

I'm not having flashbacks, if you suffer from MES (minimalist eye syndrome), then the princes of Tyre and Jerusalem went into exile in babylon. BTW, here is a source that indicated that Tyre was known to exist both on the mainland and the island. Original Assyrian Documents

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 06:54 AM

And here is a list of the Kings of Tyre. You will notice that after the year 573 they are all under to control of foreign powers, again the prophecy is fulfilled unless your obsessive compulsive about the streets and walls of Tyre.

Kings of Tyre, Under control of Babylon 573 - 539 BC

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 07:04 AM

And here is a list of the princes of Tyre sent into exile into babylon.

To Babylon........573-539

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

There is no evidence whatsoever that Ezekiel prophesied (i.e. predicted in advance) that Tyre would be attacked by Nebby (because we don't actually know when Ezekiel started writing about Tyre). In fact, Tyre was attacked by Nebby, but pretty much everything went off the rails after that point.

I notice that you can't even make up your own mind about who finally "fulfilled the prophecy". Now you're abandoning Alex and going back to Nebby again?

You have no evidence whatsoever that Zekey didn't prophesy before that Tyre would be attacked by Nebby. If you have the evidence please provide it. And yes Nebby did fulfill the prophecy, and yes Alex was part of the many nations which would rise up and attack tyre like the waves of the ocean. It is absolute RUBBISH to spin the argument that MANY NATIONS= NEBBY'S ARMIES.

sugarhitman · 02-13-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

But Jack what about the last part of ch 26 when God says that Tyre would be buried under the sea. Ch 27 says In the day that Tyre is ruined it will be buried in the sea. And not at the hands of a nation. ZeK listed land base weapons, the mainland city was layed in the water it was the one destroyed by the nations. Do this appear as two judgements to you or one? Or is it a contradiction? Or do all these things happen at one time?

Jack's quotes also indicated he is fixated only on the walls and streets of Tyre and not on the spiritual significance of zeke's prophecy. The prophecy was against the political/economic/religous system set up on tyre. Nebby succeded in exiling the princes of Tyre into babylon and then Nebby set up his own rulers in Tyre. Jack is also neglecting that the ultimate judgment on Tyre is reserved for the future. Note Luke: 10:13

Quote:

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Exactly! Tyre remains until the final Judgement. In the Prophets there is the mention of a great earthquake that destroys ALL the islands. Tyre was not to be destroyed by any nation only diminished which happened when it lost the mainland city. Jack always accuses me of evasion when I bring up this question, Why would Ezekiel have Tyre being destroyed by Nebby and in the same chapter says that it will be destroyed when it is buried under the sea? He has not answered that question. Only one has attempted so far (Sheshong) who says that it is a contradiction, or that it is P-O-E-T-I-C language and not literal. In otherwords he has no idea....and niether does Jack.

spamandham · 02-13-2008, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

You would still disbelieve. Tell me Johnny those Jews in the desert indeed ancient Israel, Knew that their God existed right?

Who are these 'jews in the desert' you refer to? You'd be taken more seriously if you dispensed with the crazy cult talk and stuck to the facts.

makerowner · 02-13-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Anyway, these people obviously suffer from Minimalist Eye Syndrom (MES)

wow, how original.

Have you guys sunk so low that you have to steal your insults from infidels?

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Uh, you seem to be hallucinating again. The population of Tyre wasn't taken to Babylon (and nor was most of the population of Jerusalem), and you have, as usual, completely ignored the actual issues regarding the dating of Daniel.

I'm not having flashbacks, if you suffer from MES (minimalist eye syndrome), then the princes of Tyre and Jerusalem went into exile in babylon.

Nope, you falsely claimed that the POPULATION of Tyre went to Babylon. You know the difference between PRINCES and POPULATION, I hope?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

BTW, here is a source that indicated that Tyre was known to exist both on the mainland and the island. Original Assyrian Documents

As usual, it says nothing of the sort. It describes a siege: "...I strengthened the watch, on sea and land, his roads I took, his going out I stopped." Looks like he used both ships at sea and men on the mainland to stop the Tyrians coming ashore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And here is a list of the Kings of Tyre. You will notice that after the year 573 they are all under to control of foreign powers, again the prophecy is fulfilled unless your obsessive compulsive about the streets and walls of Tyre.

And that list is inaccurate, given the historical fact that Tyre won its independence from the Seleucids in 126 BC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

There is no evidence whatsoever that Ezekiel prophesied (i.e. predicted in advance) that Tyre would be attacked by Nebby (because we don't actually know when Ezekiel started writing about Tyre). In fact, Tyre was attacked by Nebby, but pretty much everything went off the rails after that point.

I notice that you can't even make up your own mind about who finally "fulfilled the prophecy". Now you're abandoning Alex and going back to Nebby again?

You have no evidence whatsoever that Zekey didn't prophesy before that Tyre would be attacked by Nebby. If you have the evidence please provide it.

Classic fundie reversal-of-the-burden-of proof. I don't need such evidence. If YOU want to claim that Ezekiel was "prophesying", YOU need to provide the evidence for this. I was responding to YOUR claim, remember?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And yes Nebby did fulfill the prophecy, and yes Alex was part of the many nations which would rise up and attack tyre like the waves of the ocean. It is absolute RUBBISH to spin the argument that MANY NATIONS= NEBBY'S ARMIES.

Nebby failed to perform all the actions that he was SPECIFICALLY predicted to perform, and you have provided NO evidence for your notion that "many nations" was NOT a reference to Nebby's armies. You are still arguing that Ezekiel was a LIAR when he described Nebby as "king of kings" (a ruler over many nations), and ignoring the context in which "they" was used (plainly referring to the actions of Nebby's soldiers).

And, of course, ignoring the fact that Alexander DID NOT destroy Tyre.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-13-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Exactly! Tyre remains until the final Judgement. In the Prophets there is the mention of a great earthquake that destroys ALL the islands. Tyre was not to be destroyed by any nation only diminished which happened when it lost the mainland city. Jack always accuses me of evasion when I bring up this question, Why would Ezekiel have Tyre being destroyed by Nebby and in the same chapter says that it will be destroyed when it is buried under the sea? He has not answered that question. Only one has attempted so far (Sheshong) who says that it is a contradiction, or that it is P-O-E-T-I-C language and not literal. In otherwords he has no idea....and niether does Jack.

Hey, don't blame me for YOUR inability to read. I have already explained this (several times IIRC). Most recently, I pointed out to arnoldo "that metaphorical language that your buddy sugarhitman is so incapable of understanding" (post #154).

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02-13-2008, 06:54 AM	#173
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	And here is a list of the Kings of Tyre. You will notice that after the year 573 they are all under to control of foreign powers, again the prophecy is fulfilled unless your obsessive compulsive about the streets and walls of Tyre. Kings of Tyre, Under control of Babylon 573 - 539 BC

02-13-2008, 07:04 AM	#174
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	And here is a list of the princes of Tyre sent into exile into babylon. To Babylon........573-539

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