Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goliath

The bible is allegedly the word of the xian god. If it is inerrant, then it is the xian god's fault.

Goliath

Goliath, I am sorry you missed the gentle ribbing I meant by re-quoting your quote. Above is what you had said- you stated that it is God's fault if the Bible is without error. I thought it was funny, and poked fun at it. Obviously, you meant it exactly the other way- blaming God for the errors.

Oh well. it was funny at the time!

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

One can easily make a circle without even knowing the concept of Pi, much less any approximation of its value.

Making a circle IS easy, making wagon wheels that are consistant and casting large pots, etc. requires at least a working understanding of the geometry. It would not have taken long to figure out that if you want a wheel 12' around then 2' spokes would not work.

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zjallen

If I recall (I don't have my bible with me, darn), arn't the first two creations stories in Genesis contradictory? I beleive if my memory serves me the first one talks about how God made everything (the heaves, planet, animals) in 5 days, then man on the 6th, and rested on the 7th. In one of the next passages, it says he made man first, then made all the animals as potentials companions, then came up with the woman idea. Aside from the two being contradictory, it makes you wonder how a omnipotent being can have a "eureka" moment and think of woman after trying to mix man with horses and dogs and fish and Him only knows what else. The story of woman being created from man's rib is often told to me by creationists as being proved true by men having one less rib, I don't know which church camp they heard this from as any doctor will tell you otherwise.

I think that's right, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

In Genesis, at 2:4, something odd happens and there IS a sort of retelling of the story. The second story is not really contradictory (as far as I can tell), it just appears to be a shift in focus to Eden, or something along those lines. It does mention that God was looking for a helper for Adam (2:18) and had made the animals (past tense) and brought them around to be named. No 'helper' was found amongst them, so God made Eve. There is no sign that this is a different day (although how many animals can you review in parade and name in a day?) Nor is it clear that Adam and Eve are the people made on the 6th day. Genesis is just so dang... odd. Odd creation, odd floods, etc., etc., etc.

The bit about the missing rib still missing is such a stupid thing- I had heard that as well when I was a kid and it is so easily proven as not true you gotta wonder why it persists- it does not even make sense- why would we STILL be missing the rib?

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy Hobbit Fancier

1) Genesis 2:17 - Yahweh directly tells Adam that he will die the day he eats the fruit. As the serpent points out, this is a direct lie and Adam lives for another 930 years.

An interesting translation of the verse from the Complee Jewish Bible reads:
2:17 "except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die."

Which seems to fit the actual story better than the KJV versions of the verse.

Gregg · 04-10-2004, 09:57 PM

I"m not going to look up the exact verses right now, although one is in Isaiah. However, at one point in the OT, God says that he will punish children for the sins of their parents, down to the fourth generation.

Later, however, God basically denies he ever said any such thing, and accuses the Israelites of making it up. He says, "Where did you get this ridiculous saying, 'the parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?' Don't say that anymore" and continues by saying that he judges people by their own sins, not by the sins of their ancestors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madkins007

I am looking for some solid examples of errancy in the Bible for a hypothesis of mine.

First, about me: I am a 'rational fundamentalist with preterist leanings'. I do not knee-jerk believe in Biblical inerrancy or divine inspiration, or in most of the teachings of the churches today. I TRY to see what the Bible says for itself, and use that as a foundation.

Second, what am I looking for. My current search is a basic question: "Is there an example of God speaking to someone, or of someone directly quoting God, in which God can be shown to be in substantial error?"

I AM NOT looking for superficial contradictions, problems with eyewitness accounts, things that could reasonably be misquotes or mistranslations, 'straining at gnats', etc., but solid 'god shoulda known better than this' stuff.

And please, lets let the poor rabbit 'chew its cud' for this particular conversation, OK? That IS the sort of thing I am looking for, but this is not a very convincing example. Ditto for the proverbial 4-legged locust. (I'll discuss what I don't like these as examples one way or the other if you want, but I'd rather hold off on that for a bit.)

What is my goal? I am wondering about infallability. Obviously, 'infallability' does not extend to translations or printings- we have many examples of errors in that area. I am also not sure it is fair or appropriate to extend 'infallability, a godly attribute, to what people wrote of what they and others did, said, or thought. How would 'infallability' work if the author correctly recorded another person's inaccurate ideas, such as Jacob wrestling God. IF Jacob did not wrestle God, but thought he did, what is the 'infallability rating' of the passage if the author records Jacobs's 'I wrestled God' statement?

OK, so how about just keeping it simple- maybe only 'directly inspired' parts of the Bible are infallible?

Sure, I cold ask this at a believer's site, but they would stone me as well. At least here, I know I'll get good answers and discussion!

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominus Paradoxum

Well, I do have moral errors, and these are all done or commanded by God, so they fit your criteria:

(NAB)Hosea 14:1: “Samaria shall expiate her guilt, for she has rebelled against her God. They shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed to pieces, their expectant mothers shall be ripped open.�?

(NIV)Samuel 15: 2-3: “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' �?

(NIV)Exodus 21: 20:21: “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.�?

(NIV)Ezekiel 5: 8-10: 8 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10 Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds.�?

(NIV)2 Kings 2: 23-24: 23 “From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.�?

(NAB)Deutoeronomy 21: 18-21 “If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they chastise him, 19 his father and mother shall have him apprehended and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, 20 where they shall say to those city elders, 'This son of ours is a stubborn and unruly fellow who will not listen to us; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all his fellow citizens shall stone him to death. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel, on hearing of it, shall fear.

(NAB)Exodus 20: 5 “For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;�?

These are certainly not the examples of morals we would expect from the God we have fashioned based on the New Testament, and some of these, as well as other passages, really bother me.

However, you have included at least one that is only superficially 'immoral' in the same way.

2 Kings is an interesting story. In it, a balding prophet of God is beseiged by a large group of youth. The term used for 'youth' here is often defined as 'young man' and is used to describe people in the militaries. Considering they are outside the town a bit and there is a large group, it is unlikely that they are young children (as often implied).

The taunts refer both to Elijah's being taken up (supposedly) and to the idea that a prophet is not to cut his hair. They were not just being rude, they were saying he was not a prophet and mocking him and god. Bethel was considered an apostate town at the time, so it is reasonable that the lads thought and spoke this way.

As for the bears- if they mauled 42 of the young men, how many were in the crowd in the first place? Surely SOME got away- bears are just not that dang fast! Even if ALL got mauled, a mob of 42 young, angry men against one older guy?

The image the story traditionally calls up is one of a older guy being teased by young children later cruelly attacked by a couple of bears because of the meanness of the prophets curse.

Instead, maybe it should be an image of an older man beseiged by a very large gang of young men- biker gang or youth gang style with the older man being rescued by the appearance of two bears.

Madkins007 · 04-10-2004, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg

I"m not going to look up the exact verses right now, although one is in Isaiah. However, at one point in the OT, God says that he will punish children for the sins of their parents, down to the fourth generation.

Later, however, God basically denies he ever said any such thing, and accuses the Israelites of making it up. He says, "Where did you get this ridiculous saying, 'the parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?' Don't say that anymore" and continues by saying that he judges people by their own sins, not by the sins of their ancestors.

Thanks! I'll see if I can track this down!

GakuseiDon · 04-10-2004, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madkins007

Yeah, but is this God's error, a measuring error, an inside vs. outside error, or what? For all we know it was supposed to be a circle but got made as an oval.

It IS an error, but not the sort that I am looking for- thanks!

You crazy coot! Reasonableness has no place on this board, just as facts have no place in any contradictionist/apologist debate!

You're better off taking an extreme view - either "the Bible is crap and I'm not going to try to understand it!", or "the Bible is the unquestionable word of God and I'm not going to try to question it!" You'll get it from both groups by trying to take a moderate stance.

Glad to see you here.

Dominus Paradoxum · 04-11-2004, 12:00 AM

Quote:

These are certainly not the examples of morals we would expect from the God we have fashioned based on the New Testament, and some of these, as well as other passages, really bother me.

However, you have included at least one that is only superficially 'immoral' in the same way.

2 Kings is an interesting story. In it, a balding prophet of God is beseiged by a large group of youth. The term used for 'youth' here is often defined as 'young man' and is used to describe people in the militaries. Considering they are outside the town a bit and there is a large group, it is unlikely that they are young children (as often implied).

The taunts refer both to Elijah's being taken up (supposedly) and to the idea that a prophet is not to cut his hair. They were not just being rude, they were saying he was not a prophet and mocking him and god. Bethel was considered an apostate town at the time, so it is reasonable that the lads thought and spoke this way.

As for the bears- if they mauled 42 of the young men, how many were in the crowd in the first place? Surely SOME got away- bears are just not that dang fast! Even if ALL got mauled, a mob of 42 young, angry men against one older guy?

The image the story traditionally calls up is one of a older guy being teased by young children later cruelly attacked by a couple of bears because of the meanness of the prophets curse.

Instead, maybe it should be an image of an older man beseiged by a very large gang of young men- biker gang or youth gang style with the older man being rescued by the appearance of two bears.

O.k., I'll give you that one, but the others, especially the eating flesh, the killing of innocent babies, and the visiting the guilt of the fathers on the children are the height of immorality.

Sheshbazzar · 04-11-2004, 12:39 AM

[QUOTE=Madkins007]The 'pi=3', 'locusts with 4 legs', and 'bats are birds' bits are terrible examples of 'errors' since they assume that the culture that recorded the information was stupid.

How on Earth could artisians have made the great works of art they did if they really thought that pi was 3? They may not have known it to too many decimal places, and they may not have had any formulas, but if they really thought that pi was 3 then they would not have been able to make good wheels for the carts or any of a hundred other applications requiring at least some precision. [/Q]

There is a simple solution to the 'problem' with the mathematics which describe Solomons 'brazen sea' (I Kings 7:23)
Because "a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about", the common assumption has been that it was round or a circle. If however, given that
"It stood upon twelve oxen" and assuming that these oxen were placed equidistantly around the perimeter, dividing the rim into twelve equal segments connected by straight lines, each segment would be two and one half cubits in length, and at a diameter of ten cubits, a line of thirty cubits would compass it round about, perfectly.
Are there not twelve hours in day? how many then are in fifteen days? or in fifteen weeks? "The sixth hour....the ninth hour" being what hours in the year?
A measuring line to measure, a fingerbreadth, a handbreadth, a cubit, a mile, or to fathom a fathom, or "twenty fathoms,.. and fifteen fathoms", who will fathom what may be fathomed?
A line and a plummet, a measuring reed, simple tools, a flying scroll whose breadth IS half its length, in all the earth, who will fathom what may be fathomed?
Sheshbazzar

04-11-2004, 12:39 AM	#50
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	pi=3 [QUOTE=Madkins007]The 'pi=3', 'locusts with 4 legs', and 'bats are birds' bits are terrible examples of 'errors' since they assume that the culture that recorded the information was stupid. How on Earth could artisians have made the great works of art they did if they really thought that pi was 3? They may not have known it to too many decimal places, and they may not have had any formulas, but if they really thought that pi was 3 then they would not have been able to make good wheels for the carts or any of a hundred other applications requiring at least some precision. [/Q] There is a simple solution to the 'problem' with the mathematics which describe Solomons 'brazen sea' (I Kings 7:23) Because "a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about", the common assumption has been that it was round or a circle. If however, given that "It stood upon twelve oxen" and assuming that these oxen were placed equidistantly around the perimeter, dividing the rim into twelve equal segments connected by straight lines, each segment would be two and one half cubits in length, and at a diameter of ten cubits, a line of thirty cubits would compass it round about, perfectly. Are there not twelve hours in day? how many then are in fifteen days? or in fifteen weeks? "The sixth hour....the ninth hour" being what hours in the year? A measuring line to measure, a fingerbreadth, a handbreadth, a cubit, a mile, or to fathom a fathom, or "twenty fathoms,.. and fifteen fathoms", who will fathom what may be fathomed? A line and a plummet, a measuring reed, simple tools, a flying scroll whose breadth IS half its length, in all the earth, who will fathom what may be fathomed? Sheshbazzar

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