Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 12-17-2003, 09:31 PM

An unresolved issue in the HJ/JM debate (both inferior to the composite view) is whether veneration of something or other was occurring prior to the time of Jesus, during the life of Jesus, or in a reasonable period thereafter

I want to expressly prohibit discussions of later periods on both sides of this issue. Proponents of veneration are barred from a discussion of the 3rd century as evidence of what would happen in the first. Opponents of veneration are likewise barred. The question is exclusively what we can say about the period in question.

Moreover, I want to prohibit discussion of whether this was likely to occur for Jesus after his death. My purpose is strictly to put a nagging question behind us once and for all: Did this practice occur at the time of Jesus or not?

I open with the assertion that veneration of dead ancestors by family, and more general veneration of dead righteous ones, prophets, and kings was widespread at the time of Jesus.
____________________________

That this practice was in effect at the time of Jesus is evidenced by his own words in Matthew 23:

29: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous

What could Jesus be speaking of regarding tombs of Prophets and garnishing sepulchres of the righteous? From the Jewish Virtual Library we find indisputable evidence of continuous tomb veneration by Jews for thousands of years at The Cave of Machpelah and the Tomb of the Patriarchs:
Tomb of the patriarchs

"The Cave of Machpelah is the world's most ancient Jewish site and the second holiest place for the Jewish people, after Temple mount in Jerusalem. The cave and the adjoining field were purchased�at full market price�by Abraham some 3700 years ago." (note: See Genesis Ch. 23)

"The structure was built during the Second Temple Period (about two thousand years ago) by Herod, King of Judea, providing a place for gatherings and Jewish prayers at the graves of the Patriarchs."

This is an explanation of only one of the practices attested to by Jesus, but certainly one that he was referring to specifically. It may also have been a specific reference to the Sepulcher of David mentioned in Acts 2:29. But there are many, many more examples. The following reference discusses over fifty ancient sites of veneration:
Venerations sites at time of Jesus

"In Judaism at the time of Christ, the veneration of righteous ancestors and martyrs was widespread�nearly fifty Jewish sanctuaries commemorating ancestral prophets, patriarchs, kings, and martyrs have been found in the Holy Land. The most famous of these is the Tomb of the Patriarchs (especially Abraham), in Hebron, which is still a site of pilgrimage for Jews, Christians and Muslims, making it one of the oldest continually operating pilgrimage tombs in the world. The belief that the righteous dead can intervene or intercede on behalf of the living is based on an interpretation of a number of passages in scripture."

What is more, the same reference provides us with veneration of the Martyr Polycarp:

"The ancient account of the martyrdom of Polycarp of Smyrna (c. AD 155)�a disciple of the apostle John�records the feelings and acts of early Christians, representing a transitional view in the origin of the cult of saints. �For [Jesus] we worship as the Son of God, but the martyrs [like Polycarp] we love as disciples and imitators of the Lord. � [When Polycarp�s body had been burned by the Romans] we, at last, took up his bones, more precious than precious stones, and finer than gold, and put them where it was meet. There [at Polycarp�s tomb] the Lord will permit us to come together according to our power in gladness and joy, and celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom [= the day of his death]. � [Polycarp] thus gained the crown of immortality, and [in heaven] he is glorifying God the Almighty Father, rejoicing with the Apostles and all the righteous [dead]� (Martyrdom of Polycarp, 17.3-19.2). His martyrdom is still celebrated on the calendar of saints on 23 February."

The ancient Hebrew practice that provides the historical basis for such a thing is provided in this reference:
Ancient Hebrew Practices as precursors

"we must briefly recall the way in which many early Israelites and their contemporaries perceived life after death. Death was usually thought of as a dimmed, shady life in the netherworld. Spirits were consulted and worshipped, and such practices were particularly popular in the region where Moses was buried, Beth-Peor. The name 'Peor' denotes the 'open mouth of the netherworld'. It was believed that ancestors would benefit from the provision of grave-goods, including food provisions, and burial tombs from the early period revealed openings that would have allowed people to feed their dead ones. Traces of this custom, which was not condoned, are witnessed by Tanach. Ancestor-worship also informs the Ugaritic cuneiform texts, in which the biblical Rephaim, 'healers', are an important example of a group of deified royal ancestors who continued to live in the netherworld."

One of the reasons I chose to cite this piece was the language "which was not condoned". One of the counter-arguments against the practice is the monotheism and prohibition against graven images by the Jews. But this argument falters on several scores. First, as Jesus himself attested to - it was a practice, and it was sanctioned at the very highest levels of authority. Second, whether something was "condoned" or not is irrelevant. The question is did it happen.

Finally, the Jews were obviously quite serious about "graven images" being placed in the holy temple, as evidenced by protests to Pilate regarding Ceaser's image (see Book II ch 9 Jewish Wars) and protests to Petronius regarding a statue of Statue of Caius (See Book II Ch.10 Jewish Wars). But these are images of Gods or People (and not their people) as opposed to tombs of their own beloved prophets/martyrs/patriarchs. So this argument of Jews being "anti-veneration" is being applied far too generally besides flying in the face of the evidence itself.

A particularly grandiose family Sepulchre may be found in 1 Maccabees, chapter 13. Not one word of condemnation in that it violated the law of graven images somehow. Instead, it is marveled for its size and "cunning devices".

These evidence thus far are sufficiently bullet-proof to the deniers of such practice. It is out of the mouth of Jesus himself that the practice is confirmed, and the import of its stature is attested to by the King of Judea himself providing places the scribes and Pharisees adorned, and where Jewish people gathered and prayed. At least one instance of a lesser person after Jesus - Polycarp - provides a model of veneration proving the practice was applied to new martyrs after Jesus' death.

I am only a rank amateur here. I would quote from more scholarly sources were I to in fact be a scholar. But in the interests of brevity and making a living I submit this reference by Peter Kirby:

Kirby reference

who is quoting:

James D. G. Dunn, The Evidence for Jesus: The Impact of Scholarship on our Understanding of How Christianity Began (London: SCM, 1985), p68:

"This strange silence, exceptional in view of the religious practice of the time [of meeting at the tomb of a dead prophet], has only one obvious explanation."

I am not interested in the explanation. I am only interested in documenting that the practice was widespread at the time.

Other posters here have provided additional supporting information. GD supplied some work from Origen. Toto made a glancing reference to one Raymond Brown in Death Messiah. Vinnie, I don't remember if you gave a reference but you seemed to be acknowledging the practice. I'm done with citations for now and am throwing this thread out -

With the caveat that I would please like the discussion exclusively on whether this was a widespread practice at the proximate time of Jesus.

- RLogan

GakuseiDon · 12-17-2003, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Moreover, I want to prohibit discussion of whether this was likely to occur for Jesus after his death. My purpose is strictly to put a nagging question behind us once and for all: Did this practice occur at the time of Jesus or not?

Yes, IMHO I think the evidence you presented is good, and we can conclude that this practice did occur at the time of Jesus.

Vinnie · 12-17-2003, 10:06 PM

I already stated I do not think Christians knew what happened to Jesus' body. I gave the reference to Brown in Death Messiah. I do not know if Toto gave it as well.

I take it this thread is more for Layman since on the aspect we part ways in our reconstruction. I suppose his answer might be the same as Craig and Dunn's. Kirby seems ot have rejected that line of thinking.

At any rate I agree with Kirby entirely here on this quote:

Quote:

This, then, is the argument from silence. The writers of the foregoing documents would be likely to have been aware of the empty tomb story if it were true as opposed to a late legend or gospel fiction. If all these writers were aware of the empty tomb story, there is some reason to think that one of them would have mentioned the empty tomb story. Because none of them did, the argument from silence provides a reason to think that the empty tomb story is false. This does fall short of proof, but this should be given consideration as admissable historical evidence. If this were the only count against the empty tomb and there were very strong evidence for the empty tomb, then the judgment would fall in favor of the empty tomb. Nonetheless, this argument should be placed on the scales so that a complete assessment of the evidence is made.

The silence is one piece of why I lean away. But by itself it could not prove this and when facing weighty positive arguments an AS has to give way.

Vinnie

Vinnie · 12-17-2003, 10:08 PM

Sorry for getting off topic

Quote:

I gave the reference to Brown in Death Messiah.

There was an increase in the Jewish veneration of the tombs of martyrs and prophts during this time period.

What next? Make a new thread?

Vinnie

rlogan · 12-17-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
Sorry for getting off topic

There was an increase in the Jewish veneration of the tombs of martyrs and prophts during this time period.

What next? Make a new thread?

Vinnie

Thanks Vinnie and GD.

I still want any counterproof for lack of veneration or if there are any other real compelling citations to have them in one place.

I have suggested here that Fredrickson (Sp?) has made the error of jumping from no "graven images" (Idol) to no "graves" or "monuments". That Jews were commonly meeting at a grave for prayer is not to say they were worshiping "graven images"

I think a valid in-topic discussion is what was going on with the gentiles contemporaneously, although I'd be shocked if there was disagreement there.

There can be no question that the greeks had a God behind every tree and were extreme in comparison to the Jews in the repect of veneration. There were industries of artisans cranking out statuettes and such. So Relicing is pervasive there too.

But its fine to let this thread die - or rather having put a stake in the heart of the "no veneration" vampire to send that Dead, blood-sucking skank ghoul to the morgue.

spin · 12-17-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
There was an increase in the Jewish veneration of the tombs of martyrs and prophts during this time period.

What is the contemporary evidence for this?

spin

Vinnie · 12-18-2003, 12:19 AM

Quote:

But its fine to let this thread die - or rather having put a stake in the heart of the "no veneration" vampire to send that Dead, blood-sucking skank ghoul to the morgue.

LOL

I JUST finished watching an episode of Angel (309), the one where Angel's son is born and Darla stakes herself (got me all teary eyed)

Spin wants contemporary evidence. Do you have any for him? I note you mentioned Matthew. Does Josephus or any other figure mention this practice?

Vinnie

rlogan · 12-18-2003, 01:04 AM

I'll get back to you on that. I took Matthew to be contemporary insamuch as it referenced construction of Herod's time and was itself written, say 90 or 110A.D.

rlogan · 12-18-2003, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie

Spin wants contemporary evidence. Do you have any for him? I note you mentioned Matthew. Does Josephus or any other figure mention this practice?

Vinnie

Very cursory search of josephus yielded little of value. Got to work now. somone has to pay the bills...

GakuseiDon · 12-18-2003, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rlogan
I have suggested here that Fredrickson (Sp?) has made the error of jumping from no "graven images" (Idol) to no "graves" or "monuments". That Jews were commonly meeting at a grave for prayer is not to say they were worshiping "graven images"

Sorry, I'm not sure by what you mean her error - could you expand on that?

12-17-2003, 09:31 PM	#1
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Jewish Veneration sites proximate to Jesus time An unresolved issue in the HJ/JM debate (both inferior to the composite view) is whether veneration of something or other was occurring prior to the time of Jesus, during the life of Jesus, or in a reasonable period thereafter I want to expressly prohibit discussions of later periods on both sides of this issue. Proponents of veneration are barred from a discussion of the 3rd century as evidence of what would happen in the first. Opponents of veneration are likewise barred. The question is exclusively what we can say about the period in question. Moreover, I want to prohibit discussion of whether this was likely to occur for Jesus after his death. My purpose is strictly to put a nagging question behind us once and for all: Did this practice occur at the time of Jesus or not? I open with the assertion that veneration of dead ancestors by family, and more general veneration of dead righteous ones, prophets, and kings was widespread at the time of Jesus. ____________________________ That this practice was in effect at the time of Jesus is evidenced by his own words in Matthew 23: 29: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous What could Jesus be speaking of regarding tombs of Prophets and garnishing sepulchres of the righteous? From the Jewish Virtual Library we find indisputable evidence of continuous tomb veneration by Jews for thousands of years at The Cave of Machpelah and the Tomb of the Patriarchs: Tomb of the patriarchs "The Cave of Machpelah is the world's most ancient Jewish site and the second holiest place for the Jewish people, after Temple mount in Jerusalem. The cave and the adjoining field were purchased�at full market price�by Abraham some 3700 years ago." (note: See Genesis Ch. 23) "The structure was built during the Second Temple Period (about two thousand years ago) by Herod, King of Judea, providing a place for gatherings and Jewish prayers at the graves of the Patriarchs." This is an explanation of only one of the practices attested to by Jesus, but certainly one that he was referring to specifically. It may also have been a specific reference to the Sepulcher of David mentioned in Acts 2:29. But there are many, many more examples. The following reference discusses over fifty ancient sites of veneration: Venerations sites at time of Jesus "In Judaism at the time of Christ, the veneration of righteous ancestors and martyrs was widespread�nearly fifty Jewish sanctuaries commemorating ancestral prophets, patriarchs, kings, and martyrs have been found in the Holy Land. The most famous of these is the Tomb of the Patriarchs (especially Abraham), in Hebron, which is still a site of pilgrimage for Jews, Christians and Muslims, making it one of the oldest continually operating pilgrimage tombs in the world. The belief that the righteous dead can intervene or intercede on behalf of the living is based on an interpretation of a number of passages in scripture." What is more, the same reference provides us with veneration of the Martyr Polycarp: "The ancient account of the martyrdom of Polycarp of Smyrna (c. AD 155)�a disciple of the apostle John�records the feelings and acts of early Christians, representing a transitional view in the origin of the cult of saints. �For [Jesus] we worship as the Son of God, but the martyrs [like Polycarp] we love as disciples and imitators of the Lord. � [When Polycarp�s body had been burned by the Romans] we, at last, took up his bones, more precious than precious stones, and finer than gold, and put them where it was meet. There [at Polycarp�s tomb] the Lord will permit us to come together according to our power in gladness and joy, and celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom [= the day of his death]. � [Polycarp] thus gained the crown of immortality, and [in heaven] he is glorifying God the Almighty Father, rejoicing with the Apostles and all the righteous [dead]� (Martyrdom of Polycarp, 17.3-19.2). His martyrdom is still celebrated on the calendar of saints on 23 February." The ancient Hebrew practice that provides the historical basis for such a thing is provided in this reference: Ancient Hebrew Practices as precursors "we must briefly recall the way in which many early Israelites and their contemporaries perceived life after death. Death was usually thought of as a dimmed, shady life in the netherworld. Spirits were consulted and worshipped, and such practices were particularly popular in the region where Moses was buried, Beth-Peor. The name 'Peor' denotes the 'open mouth of the netherworld'. It was believed that ancestors would benefit from the provision of grave-goods, including food provisions, and burial tombs from the early period revealed openings that would have allowed people to feed their dead ones. Traces of this custom, which was not condoned, are witnessed by Tanach. Ancestor-worship also informs the Ugaritic cuneiform texts, in which the biblical Rephaim, 'healers', are an important example of a group of deified royal ancestors who continued to live in the netherworld." One of the reasons I chose to cite this piece was the language "which was not condoned". One of the counter-arguments against the practice is the monotheism and prohibition against graven images by the Jews. But this argument falters on several scores. First, as Jesus himself attested to - it was a practice, and it was sanctioned at the very highest levels of authority. Second, whether something was "condoned" or not is irrelevant. The question is did it happen. Finally, the Jews were obviously quite serious about "graven images" being placed in the holy temple, as evidenced by protests to Pilate regarding Ceaser's image (see Book II ch 9 Jewish Wars) and protests to Petronius regarding a statue of Statue of Caius (See Book II Ch.10 Jewish Wars). But these are images of Gods or People (and not their people) as opposed to tombs of their own beloved prophets/martyrs/patriarchs. So this argument of Jews being "anti-veneration" is being applied far too generally besides flying in the face of the evidence itself. A particularly grandiose family Sepulchre may be found in 1 Maccabees, chapter 13. Not one word of condemnation in that it violated the law of graven images somehow. Instead, it is marveled for its size and "cunning devices". These evidence thus far are sufficiently bullet-proof to the deniers of such practice. It is out of the mouth of Jesus himself that the practice is confirmed, and the import of its stature is attested to by the King of Judea himself providing places the scribes and Pharisees adorned, and where Jewish people gathered and prayed. At least one instance of a lesser person after Jesus - Polycarp - provides a model of veneration proving the practice was applied to new martyrs after Jesus' death. I am only a rank amateur here. I would quote from more scholarly sources were I to in fact be a scholar. But in the interests of brevity and making a living I submit this reference by Peter Kirby: Kirby reference who is quoting: James D. G. Dunn, The Evidence for Jesus: The Impact of Scholarship on our Understanding of How Christianity Began (London: SCM, 1985), p68: "This strange silence, exceptional in view of the religious practice of the time [of meeting at the tomb of a dead prophet], has only one obvious explanation." I am not interested in the explanation. I am only interested in documenting that the practice was widespread at the time. Other posters here have provided additional supporting information. GD supplied some work from Origen. Toto made a glancing reference to one Raymond Brown in Death Messiah. Vinnie, I don't remember if you gave a reference but you seemed to be acknowledging the practice. I'm done with citations for now and am throwing this thread out - With the caveat that I would please like the discussion exclusively on whether this was a widespread practice at the proximate time of Jesus. - RLogan

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12-18-2003, 01:04 AM	#8
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	I'll get back to you on that. I took Matthew to be contemporary insamuch as it referenced construction of Herod's time and was itself written, say 90 or 110A.D.

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