MrMacSon

If information is determined to be unreliable, then presumably arriving at that determination will have explained why it is unreliable. Then, it is unlikely one will be able to re-invent that information as evidence.

That sounds like special pleading to favor dubious information or documents.

The gospels are evidence for early christianity, as stories about christianity's central character, but they are not corroborated evidence for that character being wholly or even mostly based on a real person.

ApostateAbe

The gospels are evidence for a real person if that is the best explanation, regardless of whether the gospels are reliable. Agree or disagree?

aa5874

Your assertion is wholly illogical. Your statement is like claiming Adam and Eve did actually exist because of the book of Genesis or the Romulus and Remus did actually exist because of Plutarch's Romulus or that the angel Gabriel is a figure of history because the angel is mentioned in the gospels.

Toto

This is circular - if you have reasons to think that the best explanation of the gospels is a historical person, then they are evidence of that historical person. But if your reasons are flimsy (as we know they are) you can't just claim that the gospels are "evidence" of that person.

MrMacSon

Disagree. Reliability is key, and ought to come through verification from other reliable sources. Yet, there are no other sources that support the gospels - no artifacts, no archaeological sites, no other texts. There is no evidence there was a place called Nazareth in the 1st century. The dates for the gospels and other NT writings are speculative.

PJLazy

Regardless of whether the gospels are accurate, it is indisputable that a cult formed around Jesus. So the questions that mythers can't give a rational explanation to is how, why, when, and who came up with Jesus in the first place with such thrust and validity that it was able to convert so many so quickly. We are going off of 2000 year-old documents that are incomplete or lost. Circumstantial evidence is vitally important to both sides.

AA has a 17 pages of discussion on this and he can't say when Jesus was invented and for what purpose. That's where the myther argument always falls apart.

ApostateAbe

Even if a real person is the best explanation? I want to make sure you got that part of the question.

ApostateAbe

That sounds reasonable. Toto's answer is yes. MrMacson, I want to know if you have about the same answer as Toto or if you misunderstood.

outhouse

thats exactly it.


no unified myther hypothesis that explains away what we have.


they think attacking modern trained scholars proves their ununified half the time undefined hypothesis.





Even though we have cross cultural mythology written decades after the fact, the cultural anthropology of the place and time line up perfectly with the legnds of a traveling teacher killed for causing a stink in the temple when the corrupt governement wanted peace

aa5874

Your claim is most remarkable.

You don't care at all about the actual history in the gospels yet declare "it is INDISPUTABLE that a cult formed around Jesus".

What absurdity!!! What utter logical fallacy!!! Are you NOT dealing with 2000 year old documents that are incomplete or lost???

Where did you get your history of YOUR Jesus??? By Magic??

Once the Source for the history of Jesus is DISPUTED in the Gospels then it must be obvious by a mile that the history of the Jesus character is disputed.

Now HJers can't give a rational explanation to how, why, when, and who came up with the story that Jesus was the Son of a Ghost, God the Creator, that walked on water, transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.

If Jesus was just an ordinary man HJers can't give a rational explanation how and why the Pauline writer claimed Jesus was RAISED from the dead and that he SAW the resurrected Jesus ALIVE.

Please, explain rationally if the Pauline Jesus was dead or alive when 1 Cor.15 was written..

1. Paul claimed Jesus was dead and buried. See 1 Cor. 15

2. Paul claimed he SAW Jesus ALIVE after he was resurrected on the THIRD day. See 1 Cor.15

Was the Pauline Jesus dead or alive when 1 Cor 15 was written??


Your statement is utterly erroneous. I have stated that the Jesus story and cult originated in the 2nd century based on the Abundance of evidence.