Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 01-16-2013, 07:36 PM

For those not familiar, here's a wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpiot_Tomb

While this has been dismissed by most as a hyped up attempt to mislead via statistics, and while I also tend to dismiss conspiracy theories, I came across 3 claims which, if true, IMO go a very long way towards proving that this really was the family Tomb of Jesus.

An editorial comment first: I would think that those who wish to see Christianity demolished would welcome evidence for this family tomb, as it would support the idea that Jesus was married, had a son, and was not resurrected in body form. It would go against the depiction of Jesus as the celibate resurrected Son of God. I'm frankly surprised that the atheist community hasn't seized more on this opportunity!

Here are the 3 claims that taken together, along with the combination of the other names in the tomb (though common), I find HIGHLY significant, if true. (Supporting quotes below):

1. The name Jose, mentioned in the gospels as Jesus' brother, was very rare, yet the Talpiot tomb contained an ossuary with the name Jose on it. (the only ossuary ever found with that name).

2. Out of 'many' random samplings, patina samples from the ossuaries in the Talpiot tomb were the ONLY ones that matched the James ossuary. This strongly supports the contention that the highly unusual James ossuary really WAS stolen from the Talpiot tomb, as is claimed.

3. Dr. André Lemaire, researcher and respected epigraphic specialist of the Sorbonne in Paris, France, states the percentage the James Ossuary inscription is a modern forgery is practically a 0.1% chance.

If these 3 claims are valid, it would be sufficient evidence to confidently report that the Talpiot tomb IS the Family Tomb of Jesus.

quote regarding Josehttp://jamestabor.com/:

Quote:

It is the case that the name Joseph in its various forms in Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek (Yehosef, Yosi, Ioseph, Iosepos) is relatively common. After Shimon, it is the second most common male Jewish name of the period. Tal Ilan finds 217 examples (out of 2538 valid male names) of some form of “Joseph,” or 8.6% (ratio 1 in 11.7).

However, the specific nickname Yose in Aramaic (Yod, Wav, Samech, Heh) is extremely rare. It is found only once on an ossuary, namely the one from this Talpiot tomb with only two other examples known (a papyri and an inscription). The name in Greek (Iose or Ioses) is equally rare with only five examples listed by Tal Ilan outside the N.T. gospels. In contrast, the nickname, Yosi is quite common with dozens of examples listed by Tal Ilan. It continues to be a very common Israeli nickname for Yehosef today.

This is in fact the rare form of the name of Jesus’ second brother in the various Greek manuscripts of Mark 6:3 (Yoses, Yose). At the crucifixion and burial of Jesus, Mark also mentions a “Mary the mother of Joses/Jose” (Mark 15:40; 47) and this is clearly the mother and brother of Jesus as well (see my arguments on this in The Jesus Dynasty, pp. 77-81). Matthew changes the name of this second brother of Jesus to the more common form Joseph (Matt 13:55), but some manuscripts of Matthew 27:56 still retain the original Yose.

That Mark, our earliest gospel, has passed on a tradition that associates this rare endearing form of the name Joseph for Jesus’ second brother is most significant in terms of the Talpiot tomb and what we know of Jesus’ brothers. When Jesus is crucified in 30 CE, James his oldest brother takes over. But when James is brutally murdered in 62 CE Yose the second brother, who would have rightfully taken charge, is nowhere mentioned in any of our historical records. Rather Simon bar Clophas, takes charge of the group. Most take him to be a cousin though I have argued that he is Jesus’ third brother Simon. Either way, Yose disappears from our records. I think it is reasonable to assume that by 62 CE he had died, and if so, it should not surprise us to find a Yose buried with a Yeshua bar Yehosef. This is just what one might expect in a pre-70 CE Jesus family tomb. Given the rarity of the name, its association with Jesus’ second brother, and what we know of the pre-70 CE history of the Jesus family, the presence of a Yose in this tomb is a striking and compelling datum linking this particular tomb to Jesus of Nazareth.

The other Joseph in the tomb (Yeshua bar Yehosef) is also the form of the name one might expect since Joseph, the father of Jesus, is only known to us by the regular form of the name in Greek (Ioseph), and there is no reason whatsoever to associate him with the rare nickname Yose.

quote regarding ossuaryhttp://professortaboo.wordpress.com/tag/andre-lemaire/:

Quote:

Patina tests can decide the likelihood of where the ossuary was found and/or located prior to discovery; in other words, for our purposes here it will find a mineral fingerprint of whether the ossuary was originally inside the Talpiot tomb or whether it was buried somewhere else in Israel, or if it was buried at all.

Patina layers on various stones

Charles Pellegrino, a forensic archaeologist, sent the patina samples to the Suffolk Crime Lab in New York State for analysis. The patina off the James ossuary had trace minerals such as titanium and iron that are unique to it. In addition to samples from the Talpiot tomb, many other random samples of patina were gathered from all over Jerusalem and surrounding excavations to further identify samples from other tombs and see if the Talpiot tomb had distinguishing elemental traces. After the Suffolk Crime Lab finished its complete analysis of all samples, ossuaries from the Talpiot tomb were the only ossuaries to have contained exact traces and levels of titanium, iron, phosphorous, magnesium, and potassium which matched the same elements off the James ossuary samples. The electro-microscopic materials match in almost every elemental class with a margin-of-error of less than ten percent.

With the conclusion of the Suffolk Crime Lab’s electro-micrometer analysis, it is compelling evidence that the James ossuary is the missing ossuary of the Talpiot tomb.

quote regarding patina test for forgeryhttp://professortaboo.wordpress.com/tag/andre-lemaire/:

Quote:

There are two well-established accepted methods used by modern scientists and archaeologists to decide whether an ancient relic is a fake and what time-period it comes from: epigraphy and long-wave ultra-violet patina tests.

Dr. André Lemaire, researcher and respected epigraphic specialist of the Sorbonne in Paris, France, states the percentage this inscription is a modern forgery is practically a 0.1% chance. He goes on to say that all the words and letters are accurate representations of the Second Temple period, i.e. decades prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and that “it seems very probable that this is the ossuary of James in the New Testament.” Lemaire and the Canadian Royal Ontario Museum commented that according to established scientific methodologies of epigraphy and dating “nothing suspicious” about the ossuary or its inscriptions exists.

The other established method of determining fake relics and their time-period is long-wave ultra-violet patina tests. Patina is a layer of particles or tarnish formed on the surface of metal or stone surfaces (called cortification) over long periods of time. Under an electron-microscope the layer/tarnish reveals the oxidation process of molecules from the relic’s specific environment which also helps in elapsed time similar to carbon-dating methods. This and the epigraphic study are reliable methods of determining the ossuary’s authenticity.

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 07:43 PM

But your argument is unusual because (a) you seem to infer that the gospels are infallible but somehow the gospels claim that the tomb was empty and now (b) there really was a body. So you are willing to sacrifice the gospel in order to make Jesus real? Interesting. Says a lot about the neo-Protestant faith in this country. If this nonsense is real then the gospel narratives among to massive exaggerations. Where does it stop then? The moon unchained from its orbit plunging in the sea. Oh but Jesus is a real man. Yipee!

TedM · 01-16-2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But your argument is unusual because (a) you seem to infer that the gospels are infallible but somehow the gospels claim that the tomb was empty and now (b) there really was a body. So you are willing to sacrifice the gospel in order to make Jesus real? Interesting. Says a lot about the neo-Protestant faith in this country. If this nonsense is real then the gospel narratives among to massive exaggerations. Where does it stop then? The moon unchained from its orbit plunging in the sea. Oh but Jesus is a real man. Yipee!

Everyone here seems to think I'm a believer, though I've stated many times I am not. I am just interested in discovering the truth.

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 07:51 PM

But everything about this stuff has a ring of hollowness to it. So because the gospel has 'Jose' there really was a brother of this name but when the gospel says there never was a body it's full of shit? Really? Jesus didn't have a mother and brother. How do we know? Because the Marcionites read their gospel this way. The Jews 'tempted' Jesus by telling him that his mother and brothers were outside. The original understanding was that he was a supernatural being. Even early Catholic texts echo the Marcionite reading.

outhouse · 01-16-2013, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I am just interested in discovering the truth.

You wont find it with speculative post that are based more on imagination then evidence.

I follow that a HJ existed.

But nothing with these tombs can be linked to our Galilean Jew.

His body probably ended up in a pit for dogs to consume.

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 08:07 PM

That's how Dositheus died. According to Abu'l Fath the Samaritan 'one like Moses' climbed a mountain and hid himself in a cave, where he finally died of starvation, his corpse being eaten by dogs.

TedM · 01-16-2013, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But everything about this stuff has a ring of hollowness to it. So because the gospel has 'Jose' there really was a brother of this name but when the gospel says there never was a body it's full of shit? Really? Jesus didn't have a mother and brother. How do we know? Because the Marcionites read their gospel this way. The Jews 'tempted' Jesus by telling him that his mother and brothers were outside. The original understanding was that he was a supernatural being. Even early Catholic texts echo the Marcionite reading.

Tabor's site says the gospel have indications of two burials by Joseph of Arimathia -- the first being done with haste, as the anointed was going to be done the next morning by the women. Possibly the body was moved to the other tomb before the women arrived--thus finding an empty tomb! They are in the process of excavating the other tombs in the area, which the excavator said appeared to be on the site of a wealthy estate.

Something very interesting -- which adds to the whole Israel conspiracy theory -- was the shocking statement by the wife of the excavator quoted in a January 2008 article by Time magazine said this:

“The widow of Joseph Gat, the chief archaeologist of the 1980 excavation electrified the conference by saying: “My husband believed that this was Jesus’s tomb, but because of his experiences as a Holocaust survivor, he was worried about a backlash of anti-Semitism and he didn’t think he could say this.”

I find these archeological excavations potentially a lot more revealing than trying to figure out the Marcionite texts..

TedM · 01-16-2013, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I am just interested in discovering the truth.

You wont find it with speculative post that are based more on imagination then evidence.

This statement has makes no sense in light of the 3 claims, outhouse. If you want to dispute the claims you have to address them.

1. Was the name Jose rare, and if so would one expect to find it in combination with Jesus, Joseph, and Mary? What are the odds?

2. How likely was it that the James ossuary came from the Talpiot tomb? Are the forensic findings wrong or are they being reported in a misleading way?

3. Why should one dismiss an expert in the field, and the ultraviolet testing which both seem to strongly support that the James ossuary was not forged. Even the famous trial in Israel (the potential conspirator), did not find that it was forged.

outhouse · 01-16-2013, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

You wont find it with speculative post that are based more on imagination then evidence.

This statement has makes no sense in light of the 3 claims, outhouse. If you want to dispute the claims you have to address them.

1. Was the name Jose rare, and if so would one expect to find it in combination with Jesus, Joseph, and Mary? What are the odds?

2. How likely was it that the James ossuary came from the Talpiot tomb? Are the forensic findings wrong or are they being reported in a misleading way?

3. Why should one dismiss an expert in the field, and the ultraviolet testing which both seem to strongly support that the James ossuary was not forged. Even the famous trial in Israel (the potential conspirator), did not find that it was forged.

from your link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpiot_Tomb

This claim is disputed by many archaeologists and theologians, as well as language and biblical scholars.

Géza Vermes issued a statement saying that the arguments for the Talpiot tomb are not "just unconvincing but insignificant".

Israeli archaeologist Amos Kloner, who was among the first to examine the tomb when it was first discovered, said the names marked on the coffins were very common at the time. "I don't accept the news that it was used by Jesus or his family," he told the BBC News website. "The documentary filmmakers are using it to sell their film."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_ossuary

According to the Los Angeles Times, most scholars hold the last part of the inscription to be a forgery

The owner of the ossuary is Oded Golan, an Israeli engineer and antiquities collector.[7] In December 2004, Golan was charged with 44 counts of forgery, fraud and deception, including forgery of the Ossuary inscription

On March 14, 2012, Golan was acquitted of the forgery charges but convicted of illegal trading in antiquities.[9] The judge said this acquittal "does not mean that the inscription on the ossuary is authentic or that it was written 2,000 years ago."

TedM · 01-16-2013, 09:22 PM

outhouse, I am aware of those responses and the ugly history this stuff has. But, I'm not ready to throw it all out, as there are some very unusual things related to it.

Your quotes do not address the particular information the quote provided with regard to the name "Jose" -- the ONLY ossuary found with that on it. That is significant. They do not address the forensic evidence linking the James ossuary to the Talpiot tomb either. There is more to that story outhouse. There is evidence of a missing Talpiot ossuary, of almost the exact size of the James ossuary. ,And with regard to the forgery information, there must be quite a bit of subjectivity, but how could Lemaire be so confident as to say .1 percent chance of modern forgery? And what do the dissenters say to dispute the ultraviolet evidence found by the Canadian Royal Ontario Museum?

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

You wont find it with speculative post that are based more on imagination then evidence.

This statement has makes no sense in light of the 3 claims, outhouse. If you want to dispute the claims you have to address them.

1. Was the name Jose rare, and if so would one expect to find it in combination with Jesus, Joseph, and Mary? What are the odds?

2. How likely was it that the James ossuary came from the Talpiot tomb? Are the forensic findings wrong or are they being reported in a misleading way?

3. Why should one dismiss an expert in the field, and the ultraviolet testing which both seem to strongly support that the James ossuary was not forged. Even the famous trial in Israel (the potential conspirator), did not find that it was forged.

from your link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpiot_Tomb

This claim is disputed by many archaeologists and theologians, as well as language and biblical scholars.

Géza Vermes issued a statement saying that the arguments for the Talpiot tomb are not "just unconvincing but insignificant".

Israeli archaeologist Amos Kloner, who was among the first to examine the tomb when it was first discovered, said the names marked on the coffins were very common at the time. "I don't accept the news that it was used by Jesus or his family," he told the BBC News website. "The documentary filmmakers are using it to sell their film."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_ossuary

According to the Los Angeles Times, most scholars hold the last part of the inscription to be a forgery

The owner of the ossuary is Oded Golan, an Israeli engineer and antiquities collector.[7] In December 2004, Golan was charged with 44 counts of forgery, fraud and deception, including forgery of the Ossuary inscription

On March 14, 2012, Golan was acquitted of the forgery charges but convicted of illegal trading in antiquities.[9] The judge said this acquittal "does not mean that the inscription on the ossuary is authentic or that it was written 2,000 years ago."

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01-16-2013, 07:43 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But your argument is unusual because (a) you seem to infer that the gospels are infallible but somehow the gospels claim that the tomb was empty and now (b) there really was a body. So you are willing to sacrifice the gospel in order to make Jesus real? Interesting. Says a lot about the neo-Protestant faith in this country. If this nonsense is real then the gospel narratives among to massive exaggerations. Where does it stop then? The moon unchained from its orbit plunging in the sea. Oh but Jesus is a real man. Yipee!

01-16-2013, 07:51 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But everything about this stuff has a ring of hollowness to it. So because the gospel has 'Jose' there really was a brother of this name but when the gospel says there never was a body it's full of shit? Really? Jesus didn't have a mother and brother. How do we know? Because the Marcionites read their gospel this way. The Jews 'tempted' Jesus by telling him that his mother and brothers were outside. The original understanding was that he was a supernatural being. Even early Catholic texts echo the Marcionite reading.

01-16-2013, 08:07 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's how Dositheus died. According to Abu'l Fath the Samaritan 'one like Moses' climbed a mountain and hid himself in a cave, where he finally died of starvation, his corpse being eaten by dogs.

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