Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 05-20-2010, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

In Galatians 3:1, Paul wrote:

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified?

Without knowing anything else, there can be some ambiguity about this passage. Maybe "before whose eyes" are the eyes of the "foolish Galatians," and some translations have used that interpretation. I propose that the "eyes" belong to the bewitchers, and the bewitchers are Paul's rhetorical opponents.

One problem is agreement in number.

The passage reads You foolish Galatians [plural] who [TIS singular] has bewitched you [hUMAS plural] before whose [hOIS plural] eyes...

The plural whose seems to go with the plural Galatians rather than the singular bewitcher.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, I think that may end the debate.

spamandham · 05-21-2010, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Thanks, I think that may end the debate.

Now that we seem to have consensus as to whose eyes are whose, doesn't it bother you, from an HJ perspective, that Paul tells us how Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified before the very eyes of the Galatians he is corresponding with...a group that could not possibly have been present at a historical crucifixion of Jesus?

ApostateAbe · 05-21-2010, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Thanks, I think that may end the debate.

Now that we seem to have consensus as to whose eyes are whose, doesn't it bother you, from an HJ perspective, that Paul tells us how Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified before the very eyes of the Galatians he is corresponding with...a group that could not possibly have been present at a historical crucifixion of Jesus?

It certainly bothers me that my argument was laid to ruins.

The best way to explain it from my perspective now is, perhaps, with simple exaggeration or a figurative expression, such as in Romans 3:18.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The phrase in Galatians 3:1 would have to be a figurative expression one way or the other. Do you think it makes more sense as a figurative expression if Paul thought Christ was crucified purely in the spirit world or something? Or maybe it isn't so much a figurative expression as it is a spiritual expression?

spamandham · 05-21-2010, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The phrase in Galatians 3:1 would have to be a figurative expression one way or the other. Do you think it makes more sense as a figurative expression if Paul thought Christ was crucified purely in the spirit world or something? Or maybe it isn't so much a figurative expression as it is a spiritual expression?

If Paul presented the argument of Jesus' crucifixion to the Galatians from scripture, then there is no need to resort to arguing that it was figurative or in a spirit world. Paul literally means exactly what he said from that perspective .... that Jesus was clearly *portrayed* as crucified to them.

It's *possible* that Paul came up with a scriptural argument to act as an apology for a historical crucifixion, but why? If the crucifixion is an event of contemporary history, what would be the need to prove that it happened?

andrewcriddle · 05-22-2010, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Now that we seem to have consensus as to whose eyes are whose, doesn't it bother you, from an HJ perspective, that Paul tells us how Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified before the very eyes of the Galatians he is corresponding with...a group that could not possibly have been present at a historical crucifixion of Jesus?

PROEGRAPhH ESTAURWMENOS the Greek phrase rendered as portrayed as crucified is difficult to construe, but the use of the perfect ESTAURWMENOS literally as having been crucified probably implies some form of vivid representation of a past but still relevant event.

IE this does not seem at face value to be a claim that the Galatians actually witnessed the crucifixion at the time it happened.

Andrew Criddle

NB Although PROEGRAPhH here could mean portrayed as this is not an obvious translation, although it may well be the least unsatisfactory interpretation.

ApostateAbe · 05-22-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

The phrase in Galatians 3:1 would have to be a figurative expression one way or the other. Do you think it makes more sense as a figurative expression if Paul thought Christ was crucified purely in the spirit world or something? Or maybe it isn't so much a figurative expression as it is a spiritual expression?

If Paul presented the argument of Jesus' crucifixion to the Galatians from scripture, then there is no need to resort to arguing that it was figurative or in a spirit world. Paul literally means exactly what he said from that perspective .... that Jesus was clearly *portrayed* as crucified to them.

It's *possible* that Paul came up with a scriptural argument to act as an apology for a historical crucifixion, but why? If the crucifixion is an event of contemporary history, what would be the need to prove that it happened?

Hmm... I think that would still have to be a figurative way of putting it. The most literal interpretation of what Paul is saying is that these people watched with their eyeballs Jesus getting crucified. If Paul meant something else, then it is a figurative expression. If there are some scriptural passages that can be easily interpreted as Jesus getting crucified, and you can connect that with Paul, then your hypothesis would have some plausibility.

Toto · 05-22-2010, 10:25 AM

The most straightforward interpretation is that the Galatians watched a drama of Jesus being crucified, an early Passion Play. But I'm not sure how that would prove to the Galatians that Jesus was the road to salvation and not the law.

Martin Luther's commentary shows a different grammatical analysis:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Luther

VERSE 1. Before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth.

Paul's increasing severity becomes apparent as he reminds the Galatians that they disobeyed the truth in defiance of the vivid description he had given them of Christ. So vividly had he described Christ to them that they could almost see and handle Him. As if Paul were to say: "No artist with all his colors could have pictured Christ to you as vividly as I have pictured Him to you by my preaching. Yet you permitted yourselves to be seduced to the extent that you disobeyed the truth of Christ."

VERSE 1. Crucifed among you.

"You have not only rejected the grace of God, you have shamefully crucified Christ among you." Paul employs the same phraseology in Hebrews 6:6: "Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It should make any person afraid to hear Paul say that those who seek to be justified by the Law, not only deny Christ, but also crucify Him anew. If those who seek to be justified by the Law and its works are crucifiers of Christ, what are they, I like to know, who seek salvation by the filthy rags of their own work-righteousness?

Can there be anything more horrible than the papacy, an alliance of people who crucify Christ in themselves, in the Church, and in the hearts of the believers?

...

True, Christ can no longer be crucified in person, but He is crucified in us when we reject grace, faith, free remission of sins and endeavor to be justified by our own works, or by the works of the Law.

The idea of crucifying Christ in your heart when you sin is part of traditional Christian teaching which is compatible with the idea that the crudifxion is primarily a symbolic or mythic event, and only secondarily, if at all, a historical event.

Toto · 05-22-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The most straightforward interpretation is that the Galatians watched a drama of Jesus being crucified, an early Passion Play. ...

See JoeWallack's post here on the integration of Greek tragedy into religious ceremonies.

aa5874 · 05-22-2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The most straightforward interpretation is that the Galatians watched a drama of Jesus being crucified, an early Passion Play. ...

See JoeWallack's post here on the integration of Greek tragedy into religious ceremonies.

If gMark was Greek Tragedy then all the Greek historians, writers and people who knew or was acquainted with Greek Tragedy would most probably have recognised that JESUS was just a FICTION story and was NOT the offspring of the Holy Ghost, had NO disciples and did NOT reveal ONE SINGLE thing to Paul.

The information in gMark gives an indication why it was written.

It is clear from gMark 13 that it was the author himself who thought that a conflagration was about to occur when heaven and earth would pass away, the sun and moon would become dark, the stars would fall and God would judge the earth.

It would appear the author of gMark thought that the supposed prophecies in Joel would be shortly fulfilled.

Toto · 05-22-2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

..
If gMark was Greek Tragedy then all the Greek historians, writers and people who knew or was acquainted with Greek Tragedy would most probably have recognised that JESUS was just a FICTION story ....

What do you mean JUST a fiction story? Fictional stories can be quite powerful.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.