dado

what bothers me is the backhanded insults from the reverend's end of the spectrum. if you want bacon for breakfast, go ahead and eat it, nobody cares. but that's not good enough for him: to justify it he has to fabricate lies about Judaism - while at the same time picking and choosing which parts of Oral Law he likes.

ugh.

Magdlyn

I guess you mean, but that's not good enough for him? I'd point this out in PM, but I know you rarely check em!

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

First, the moral law is found in summary form in the Ten Commandments. No mention of your dietary laws! Though their are moral/ethical components to the civil and ceremonial laws (incl. your dietary laws), these laws were not the basis of salvation even for the Jews or Jewish Christians. In Galatians 2, Paul writes "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." There was no deceit, but purposeful intention not to belabor points of minuitae when the overarching issues would suffice.

Concerning lies - It is the earthly man who "exchanged the truth of God for a lie." It humors me how those who oppose God himself, the Scripture, the Ten Commandments (Moral law), and the Spirit himself, are those who claim to be righteous (in their own eyes) and attack Christians who honor these things. But of course, if you deny the true law maker, establish yourself as king, declare your own standards of morality, and justify your own behavior while pointing the finger at others who do the same things you do, then I guess ANYTHING is okay. As we find in the book of Romans, "Let God be true, and every man (who opposes him, declares his own righteousnes, denies the word, mercies and goodness of God, etc.) a liar."

Starboy

It is just damn funny. There is no way for a Christian to know if they know anything about god at all and yet they get all so righteous about it and accuse others of being righteous for pointing out their obvious hypocrisies and deceits. Muse if you want to believe then believe but to presume that you have it right and everyone else has it wrong when all you got is a very self contradictory and reality challenged book and your feelings is the height of self deception. If you can't be honest with yourself then you will not be honest with others.

Starboy

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

I guess you're right. I should deny the Spirit, he word of truth that has been preserved and upheld for generations leading men to both the promises and peace of God as well as to piety and practical living, deny my inward convictions and set aside Christ himself in whom I have found life, hope, wisdom, strength and joy,... to follow the ways of those who have none of above. ... Not in a million years, and not for all this world has to offer!

Magdlyn

Yeah, and the questioner says, I already do those things, so X says, sell all you have and follow me. Then the man (the reader of the gospel can ID with him) goes away, and we do not know what he decides to do.

You might want to read the new Robert Price book The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. In it, he addresses apparent contradictions in the Xtian Scriptures on how to follow Jesus. He compares it to Hinayana and Mahayana Buddhism, the narrow and wider paths to enlightenment.

There are also 2 kinds of "followers" of Jesus referred to--the wandering good news bringers, and the comfortable householders, also seen as righteous, who financially support the mendicant apostles. (Compare to the celibate vegetarian parfaits and more ordinarily devout laypeople of medieval Catharism.)

King Rat

The impression I got from those posting contrary to your position was that they would prefer that you use your critical thinking skills and your 'god-given' reason. Your post reeks of black-and-white emotionalism and not a little bit of fear.

Calm down Rev. use your head.

dado

you are drawing a distinction that does not exit in Judaism. if there is a summary form, it is the Noachidic laws, not the 10 Instructions. and lest we forget, there is no mention in the Noachidic laws of homosexuality.

you are fabricating more distinctions that DO NOT EXIST in Judaism. the food laws are moral laws, full stop, period. you are free to ignore them, but the distinction you keep trying to draw is a fabrication on your part and fundamentally deceitful.

Jews do not need "salvation. nor do they believe anybody needs "salvation" for the simple reason there is nothing from which to be saved. you are creating a problem to justify your solution - and you are free to do so - but it simply has no basis in Judaism.

[snip...more inconsistent gobblygook...]

Paul did exactly what you are doing: inventing a faith and then picking and choosing from an existing tradition in a hopeless attempt to justify it. the rest of the bones i leave to others to pick over.

Starboy

Funny thing Muse is that even in your supposed faith you already deny the spirit. For your faith is not the only faith on the earth to use the bible as the source of its teachings. And the very same verses that you use to justify your belief and denigrate those that do not share your belief are used by others when referring to what you believe. You see Muse you are guilty of self deception since you will not subject your own beliefs to the same critical examination as you would apply to the beliefs you deny. If you did you would not be a Christian.

Starboy

Magdlyn

You do not need to set aside the spirit. Just stop using your particular (Southern Baptist?) style way of interpreting the Logos.

Maybe become an Anglican? A Quaker? A non-religious Gnostic like me?

The trouble is, the dogma of your sect has become an idol to you. Yes, you are an idol worshiper. And of a shaky, worm-riddled one at that. Sorry, but that is what I see.

Do you even know that there are other ways of being a Xtian? (Some Baptists and LDS, I have heard, are so entrenched in their particular culture [Bible Belt, Salt Lake City], they do not know there are other ways of looking at the world and the Bible.) Have you ever met an intelligent, liberal Xtian, or a kind, generous atheist or neo-pagan?

You wouldn't be the first person in the world to "de-convert" from a fundamentalist standpoint. I would venture to say (tho I am new here) some people have received such an education on this board, they de-converted as a result of that.

If I wanted to get all mystic and woo-woo here, I could even venture to say, the spirit drew you to this board! (stands back to avoid splashes of holy water)