brighid

Thanks again guys. I am adding this information to a special list I can keep handy the next time my mother and I talk on this subject. She reads entirely too many publications from Focus on the Family!!

Brighid

diana

I'm rusty on my gay male sex, but if you're going to be cornholed, I suspect it matters not whether you have a schlong.

I have a hard time envisioning what was going on in the tale as anything but an intended sexual assault. First, I don't believe I've read "know" in the bible in any other context; doesn't it always imply sexual congress? Second, S&G was characterized by angry mobs, who generally aren't interested in a fireside chat when they demand someone give up whoever they're shielding.

An interesting explanation I heard once (but would love some actual primary source backup on) is the idea that raping other men was a common way to humiliate them, most often considered a "spoil of war." It placed the victim in the role of a woman, and for those men in that time (hell...in this as well) this was a fate worse than death.

This take on the story fits in nicely with this NT reference to S&G: Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This suggests their sin was being inhospitable. But then there's that "going after strange flesh" Jude thing (angels?), so apparently at least one NT writer interpreted the S&G story as a condemnation of homosexuality.

Interestingly enough, though, the men outside the house weren't condemned (by Lot, at least) for their desire to rape and humiliate, because he offered his virgin daughters to them instead of the angels. So those men wanted something worse than mere rape. That one thing would probably be rape of another man. The Hebrews obviously considered this far more reprehensible than rape of a mere woman (a Hebrew woman--foreign women were open game, though).

As an interesting aside, I read a (medical) theory for the later command by Moses (or Aaron? I forget) to spare the 10,000 virgins in the spoils of battle, to put to death all the men and women who'd known man. His theory was that it was a health concern. They'd had a nasty bout of syphilis (most likely) from a previous "conquest", so Moses had all the possible carriers of this ailment slain and only the pure taken as POWs.

Makes a bit of sense to me.

d

Toto

Except that syphilis was introduced into Europe by Columbus' sailors returning from the New World.

diana

Different STD, then.

Same concept. (Nitpick nitpick nitpick. )

d

Dean Anderson

Hmmm...

on the one hand, to 'know' someone is sometimes a euphemism for to have sex with them in the Bible, but it is far more often used in the normal context of recognising or discerning something. The particular Hebrew verb form here is vndjh. Now my Hebrew is very poor, but this seems to be a future-tense verb form roughly corresponding to the English 'we may know' - indicating the possibility of future knowledge. It is used in the OT seven times, each one being in the context of having knowledge revealed to the speakers.

Based on this context it would appear that the best translation of Genesis 19:5 would be '...so that we may recognise them' or '...so that we may see who they are' rather than '...so that we may rape them'. However, I defer to anyone whose Hebrew is stronger than mine.

These verses are quite clear in stating that men should not have sex with other men as they do with women. However, the 'as with a woman' part is a very strange clarification to make. The surrounding verses about bestiality, for example, don't say that you should not lie with a beast as with a woman - simply that you should not lie with a beast.

Without more context it is not clear whether homosexual sex itself is prohibited (in which case there would be no need for the clarification) or whether a particular act is not allowed as part of (otherwise acceptable) homosexual sex.

Romans 1 doesn't condemn homosexuality when the verses are taken in context. It says that some people have turned away from God - and that (because of that) God has punished them by making them homosexual.

One in the eye for the 'homosexuality is a choice' brigade there...Nope, according to the Bible, God makes people homosexual - they have no choice in the matter.

The Greek words for the people condemned in this verse are pornoi (usually translated as 'fornicators' or 'whoremongers'), eidwlolatrai (always translated as 'idolators'), moicoi (always translated as 'adulterers'), malakoi (always translated as 'effeminate') and arsenokoitai (translated as either 'sodomites' or 'homosexuals').

Can anyone who is intimate (pun intended) with Greek say what the best translation of arsenokoitoi is? does it refer to homosexuality or is it purely a reference to people who indulge in anal sex?

Similarly, is malakoi effeminate in a sexual sense, or simply 'weak'. Not all the other terms mentioned in this verse are sexual ones - so it might not necessarily be a sexual reference.

This uses the same word as above (arsenokoitoi) although in the plural - arsenokoitaiV - in a similar context (a list of 'naughty people'), so the same translation will (presumably) apply.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): Exactly. And that's apparently not been lost on the guys down in Military Intelligence.

John Spong does a good job with that interpretation (that it was about gang raping the angels/men to humiliate strangers in their city) in Living in Sin.
--p 142

French Prometheus

Sex in the Bible :
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm

More specifically about homosexuality :
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm

And also family values :
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/fv/long.html

French Prometheus

From what I've read in various sources :
The word arsenokoitai was probably created by Paul (it has never been found in other ancient books) after the expression arsenos koiten found in the Septuagint version of Leviticus 18:22. Therefore the meaning seems to be "those who have sex with (other) males" and "sodomites" is not a bad translation.
Arsen means male and koite is related to the Latin word coitus still used in English.

ThePhoenix

And I await your detailed evaluation and rebuttal of my claim that half of the US senate, and two thirds of the house are in fact space aliens.