Casper

If marcion wrote them would his "prophet" for lack of a better word be named Paul?

Curious what discussion this will bring.

rlogan

Not sure what you mean by prophet - a prophet is not the same as the saviour, if that is what you are getting at.

There may indeed have been a Paul whether Marcion wrote the episltes or not. He may have commandeered that legend with the writings merely as a credentialing.

Casper

You are saying Paul was Marcion's saviour? Or did I seem to imply that? If so, sorry

No, I meant Paul; if Marcion fabricated him, would he have named him Paul?

Not saying he did, and of course he could have fabricated individual epistles based on an original, or an oral tradition.

rlogan

Well the word play with Paul's name changing from "big" to "small" upon adopting Christianity is a little too cute, along with what looks to be fabrication for effect - the business of somehow persecuting Christians before becoming the greatest amongst them.

I am leaning in the direction of a fabricated Paul.

aa5874

It must not be forgotten that Jesus of the NT was fabricated. It is not beyond reason that Paul of the NT was of the the same origin. Remember he had fabricated revelations from the fabricated God/man.

Now, what I find interesting is that Justin Martyr and the church writers appear to be in conflict with respect to Marcion, even Tertullian himself seemed to contradict himself.

Against Marcion 4.5 by Tertullian
First Apology 63 by Justin Martyr The writer called Tertullian is claiming that Marcion's Gospel was condemned and was hardly known yet Justin Martyr is claiming the opposite. Marcion's teachings was well known and many people were in fact followers of Marcion so much so that Justin was being laughed at.

It would appear that the information about Marcion as provided by the writer called Tertullian may not be true.

It would seem to me that Marcion did not ever see any writings named the gospel according to Luke, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

And the writer Tertullian made this amazing admission.

Against Marcion 4.2 It would now appear that Tertullian's Against Marcion was actually written to contradict an anonymous writer.

And remember Marcion was long dead when the writer called Tertullian wrote "Against Marcion" where an anonymous writing was attributed to Marcion.

And at other time the writer called Tertullian claimed Marcion was a member of the Catholic Church but mentioned that the followers of Marcion may not agree, but he has a letter for proof.

Against Marcion 4.4 It would appear that Against Marcion was written after Marcion was dead and that the Marcionites have denied that Marcion ever attended the Catholic Church.

Now, if the Marcionites have denied Marcion was ever a member of the Catholic church where did Tertuliian get the letter from?

Why would Marcion need to write a letter to claim he was a member of the Catholic church? Such information would have been public knowledge, all the church people that knew Marcion would be able to confirm the membership of Marcion, Marcionites, non-Marcionites, skeptics and all.

The letter may have been fabricated.

So far, Tertullian has attributed an anonymous writing to Marcion while claiming that Marcion was a former member of the Catholic church which the Marcionites have denied.

Tertullian has claimed Marcion's gospel was condenmed by all and not well known, but Justin Martyr refutes him, Marcion was well known and had many followers.

The information about Marcion as supplied by the writer Tertullian may have been fabricated.

Casper

Well sure, I can't even rule out that Marcion is fabricated by the Catholics as a big boogy-man to scare the flock into submission. Maybe the personification in their minds of all the competition wrapped together.

Heck, they may have forced the invention of Paul by categorically condemning an epistolicon before it was even compiled from household literature that was only meant to convey a sense of belonging:

proto-marcionite 1: "Yes, we have a letter from a prophet at our synagogue, it is addressed to some of the elders. That is how I know they are legitimate."

proto-marcionite 2: "You know, at my synagogue we have a letter from a prophet too. It is addressed to some of those elders there and describes his revelation in detail. It definitely must be legitimate."

proto-marcionite 3: "Well our elders have more than one letter addressing them. And they bring great news from someone in the know. Too many have verified the status of the elders in my synagogue to dispute them without evidence.

proto-marcionite 4: "Maybe they are all about the same prophet? I dunno. Surely we cannot all be wrong."

Catholic 1: "They are all heresies, twisted by the evil that is Valentinus!"

proto-marcionite 5: "Perhaps you can show us what you have from the prophet?"

Catholic 2: "Well, we don't happen to have anything like that put together, but I'll find something. You know that Apostolion you gave me? I have gone through and shown what the author has changed, and written at length about how it should have read. I believe there is probably another continuation about the various acts of the apostles."

Catholic 3: "In the mean time can you copy these for me into one work so that I may give a lengthy rebuttal? I would certainly like to see what I am to refute, although truth is true regardless of the lie."

early-Marcion: "Hey, my dad has some, and I have access to many; he is one of the elders from Sinope. And I travel all through Syria on business. I'll make a compilation."

Ben C Smith

The Latin name Paulus does mean small. Might I ask what you mean, though, when you say that his name used to be big?

Ben.

arnoldo

I posted this info on another thread (but for those who missed it) it appears that according to Hermann Detering "small ones" may have at one time referred to a certain sect.

rlogan

Sure, Ben. His name was allegedly Saul before it was Paul. That was the first King of Israel, IIRC, and connotates something tantamount to the one we have been praying for -

And to me that is a literary device of Saul, the big shot, becoming Paul, the lowly servant - in accord with the whole "First shall be last, last shall be first" business of Christianity.

There is this hypocrisy I see in it, where we are to humble ourselves and in so doing then Jesus will ride in on thunderbolts and kick everyone's ass "with power" and we'll dance on the hot flames of everyone else burning in hell while we party above in heaven. See how we sincerely wish to be least? By ge getting the most in the end by being least on earth?


I realize this is name change is in Acts and is therefore a later rendition of Paul.

Thanks arnoldo. Very interesting.

Ben C Smith

And the one we have been praying for means big?

Ben.