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Old 07-24-2011, 06:07 PM   #1
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Default Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels (HHI Review)

Mani and Authorship of the Canonical Gospels

An excellent article discussing the ancient historical evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryHuntersInternational

We have been in error, accepting the view of biblical scholarship and Christian tradition which dates the canonical gospels to the early period of the Roman Empire.

This error is personally mortifying, for I recognised and declared long ago the danger inherent in this approach. This is the sort of nonsense we accepted:
Even within the period that runs from c. A.D. 100-300 it is possible for paleographers to be more specific on the relative date of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament. For about sixty years now a tiny papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John has been the oldest “manuscript” of the New Testament. This manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars. (Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts by Peter van Minnen)
Use of the terms “fact” and “proved” is wrong. The early fragments of the New Testament do not have a secure, archaeological context and none have been radiocarbon-dated, relying instead on paleography. Here is better thinking:
What emerges from this survey is nothing surprising to papyrologists: paleography is not the most effective method for dating texts, particularly those written in a literary hand. Roberts himself noted this point in his edition of P52. The real problem is the way scholars of the New Testament have used and abused papyrological evidence. I have not radically revised Roberts’s work. I have not provided any third-century documentary papyri that are absolute “dead ringers” for the handwriting of P52, and even had I done so, that would not force us to date P52 at some exact point in the third century. Paleographic evidence does not work that way. What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. Thus, P52 cannot be used as evidence to silence other debates about the existence (or non-existence) of the Gospel of John in the first half of the second century. Only a papyrus containing an explicit date or one found in a clear archaeological stratigraphic context could do the work scholars want P52 to do. As it stands now, the papyrological evidence should take a second place to other forms of evidence in addressing debates about the dating of the Fourth Gospel. (“The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel” by Brent Nongbri, Harvard Theological Review 98:23-52, 2005.)
A relevant thread from earlier discussion is located here:
Was Mani "Christianized", was Mani crucified, and had Eusebius read Mani's "Gospel"?

There was very limited discussion on the last question, namely whether Eusebius had read Mani's "Gospel" or any of Mani's many Epistles to his Apostles. The question appears a reasonably asked one on the basis that there appears to be evidence that there were Manichaean monasteries within the Roman Empire from early 3rd century, and that there was one in Rome c.312 CE.
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:01 AM   #2
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Thanks, Pete, good to learn that someone else is challenging the early date given to P52.

Here's an interesting summary of Mani, which I had not encountered, earlier. Perhaps it is already well known to others, if so, sorry for reposting the link.....

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Old 07-25-2011, 10:38 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avi View Post
Thanks, Pete, good to learn that someone else is challenging the early date given to P52.
Hi avi,

Yes I think its about time someone put the proper and critical perspective on the entire collection of undated "Early Christian Papyri Fragments". As a secondary dating process paleographical assessment is very useful, but to use it as a primary dating process is fraught with many problems.

The classic modern example might be "DESIDERATA"
Quote:
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
And remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly & clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull & ignorant;
they too have their story.

etc
This was mass produced in an old gothic or old english style script, with the claim that it was found 300 years before the 1960's and 1970's (when it was widely distributed) in an old church. In fact it was authored c.1928 by the American poet Max Erhman.

One might naturally expect a literary production of a very late century to be able to effectively mimic and use more ancient scripts, known to the professional scribes (of the later century), as a means to make the publication appear centuries old.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:00 AM   #4
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sounds like people today that go around checking different religions, then someone does not like you and has you done away with.
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