Clivedurdle

Shes, you are beginning to outline what might be a very interesting set of ideas about the use and meaning of numbers and measurements in the old testament.

Would you state clearly what you think was going on? I like a summary, discussion of detail where needed, and conclusions!

The discussion about foursquare was probably an example of not being clear enough - for example I cannot work out what you mean by sixty squares encircling fifty squares!

thanks

Clive

offa

Offa, in reply
Obviously you are ahead of me. I mistook foursquare with four
squared. The above quotation has blown me out of the water in a sense,
in another sense I pondered about going vertical with 3-4-5 as well
as being horizontally flat.

I have read "Jubilees" or, "The Book of Division" if you prefer. In
Jubilees I can not get past "49", whereas, in Genesis (Exodus?) the
number "50" is implied. Reading Josephus I also get a sense of
"fifty".

In reading "Jubilees" I was awe-struck because of the Julian (The
Julius Caesar Julian, not the other guy) Calender. He added 1 day
every 4 years after dating (sex dating) Cleopatra, whereas, the
Gentiles (as opposed to Noah) already added 17 and 1/2 days every 14
years which is equivalent to 1/4 day a year. So, the Egyptian
calendar that J.C. accepted from the Egyptians had already been in use
by the Gentiles.

Offa*


*very drunk, just poured a foundation in Swanton, OH. not far from
Michigan. It is colder than hell, you know, pour concrete, get cold,
drink beer, get drunk. A never-ending cycle ... and I love it!!!

Sheshbazzar

But that difference is not a change in the measure of TIME, only a variation in the earths rotation as measured against the fixed 'standard', the 'day', that is the 24 hour time period still contains 86,400 seconds,and has not varied by a second, and if TIME were to actually shift or vary there would be no way to measure such a event.

Sheshbazzar

Clive, as I said, I am attempting to keep my explanations as brief, concise, and to the point, as the nature of the subject matter will allow.
I am not being evasive, however to reach any valid conclusions there is a need to establish some common accepted 'standards' that any educated person in any nation or language can relate to, and above all languages mathematics is the 'language' of reason.

Each one of us has a unique set of circumstances that cumulate in what we are, what we believe or disbelieve, and how we process and apply the information that we have available.
We are raised in societies with certain ingrained traditions, and 'standard' ways of 'looking' at things, because that is all that we have ever 'seen' or understood, (our paradigms) except the problem is, we often don't actually understand at all, but just fall into line with what has 'always been accepted' is 'traditional' or is accounted as 'right thinking', conformity, when in reality it is the continuing handiwork of corrupt powers that subjugated us by murder, terrorism and tyranny.

This board usually displays considerable contempt for the "Judeo-Christian" forms of religion, but how many, for all the protesting that is going on here, are willing to relinquish their absolute enslavement to the 'calendar' that heritage has fashioned for them?

Sheshbazzar

A little story for thought,
"But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;
And sounded, and found it twenty fathoms; and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found it fifteen fathoms Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon the rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day (light) And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, Saul said unto the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. Then the soldiers cut off the ropes of the boat, and let her fall off. and while the day was coming on, Saul besought them all to take food, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing, Wherefore I pray you to take some food; for this is for your health: for there shall not a hair fall from the head of any of you. And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to **** in the presence of them all; and when he had broken it, he began to eat. Then were they all of good cheer, and they also took some food. And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls. And when they had eaten enough, they lightened the ship, and cast out the wheat into the sea. And when it was day (light) they knew not the land:" (Acts 27:27-39)

Many sermons have been based on v. 31 of this story, but very few on the words highlighted here, But I am writing this unto men, whom if they have been 'taking the measure', can also perceive that they likewise are approaching 'some unknown shore', And how I would that you should fathom this matter.
You know that a 'fathom' is six 'feet' or seventy and two 'inches', and that therefore twenty fathoms are one hundred twenty 'feet' or one thousand four hundred and forty 'inches', and that fifteen fathoms are ninety 'feet' or one thousand and eighty 'inches', and that the difference between these two soundings is thirty 'feet', or three hundred and sixty 'inches', and the sum of these two soundings is two hundred and ten 'feet' or twenty five hundred and twenty 'inches' (the half of which is twelve hundred and sixty 'inches')
Do any of these numbers sound a little familiar? If you are at all familiar with the Bible they should.
Then there is the matter of the "fourteenth night" dawning into "the fourteenth day". (the evening, and then the morning)
In thirteen days there are three hundred and twelve hours and the "fourteenth day" is that time period between the end of the three hundred and twelfth hour unto the end of the three hundred and thirty sixth hour, and fifteen full days has three hundred and sixty hours, even in the times the sun, moon, and stars give no light.
Line and plummet in the hand of Zerubabble

Clivedurdle

Shes

I once read a fascinating book about measurements in ancient times - megalythic yards, stonehenge as an astronimical clock etc.

I think there is no doubt that before the Pyramids were built there were very sophisticated calendars, including corrections for leap years and something to do with the return of Venus is it every seventeen years? I mentioned a golden hat that has been found on another thread that was definetely used to calculate seasons - the pre runner of the classic wizards hat.

I have no problem with the Biblical writers using all sorts of codes to give other messages than we think is being said.

What is the message of Acts that you quote? This is beyond my experience and therefore I do need help here!

Sheshbazzar

On the simplest level that little story is the proof that Saul (Paul) and his shipmates were still observing a 'day' that began with the 'evening' and extended until the next 'evening', being 'one day' just like in Genesis, the Law, and throughout the entire Bible both 'the old Testament', and the New,
You might also note him still observing the Sabbath's in Acts 11:26, 13:5,14, 42-44, 14:1, 16:13 and 18:4 (see also v.11) and also the other 'set times' of the Law as indicated in 18:21 (on this one you will have to compare Bibles as some 'versions' have removed twelve of Paul's words, including a reference to Jerusalem) 18:26, 20:6,7 (midnight on the 'first day of the week', is twelve A.M Saturday night, as we are now accustomed to observe time-and Paul departed on his long journey at "the break of day" (sunrise) on Sunday morning, not hanging around to preach all day Sunday as is now commonly supposed) see also 20:16 and 27:9. (The change to 'Sunday worship' is not found within the text, within the teachings, nor within the practices of Paul, nor any of the early congregations, it is purely the invention of a bloodthirsty Gentile (pagan) 'church' that degenerated and corrupted itself.)
Further evidence also exists in these texts but would take up much time in explaining and proving.

The "fathom" is one of the measures that can tie our present system of linear measurement to that which was used in Biblical times, as the fathom is a common 'standard unit of measurement' that has been employed by almost all seafaring peoples for millinea.
Depending upon how many additional questions or disputations the foregoing brings forth, it is my intention to move ahead as quickly as possible to some hands on exercises or 'homework' for interested parties.
-Zerubabble-

RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Sheshbazzar:
This is no answer. What you are now assuming is that the abstract system that you have developed is real instead of some kind of fantasy. What you are saying is that there is some kind of reality to your abstract system, which you have not demonstrated.

As an example of your ahistorical, abstract thinking, you say:
Now, historically, there is no evidence for the presence of the Jews as slaves in Israel, nor is there any evidence for the Exodus. This being the case, aside from the mythology of the Torah, how can you speak of the so-called abominations of the Egyptians?

RED DAVE

Sheshbazzar

Ah, Dave you are flattering me too much! I really cannot take the credit for inventing the "abstract" 24 hour, 1440 minute, 86,400 second 'day', or the "abstract", 6 sided, 2160 degreed, 129,600 Minuit, 7,776,000 second 'cube', I can't even the claim credit for the simple "abstract" 360 degree, 21,600 minute, 1,296,000 second 'square' or 'circle';
But my fellow man using all of these self-same "abstract" numbers (which I most assuredly am not the 'developer' of, nor the sole sustainer of, nor the sole wittiness of) have sailed the seas, split the atom, and landed ships on the moon, Mars and other heavenly bodies, with much more yet still to be accomplished and revealed by the further employment of these self-same
"abstract" numbers, Ask your fellow atheists.

Sheshbazzar

Correct , I "have not YET demonstrated", in as much as I am herein presently engaged in the process of demonstrating, and have not YET completed this demonstration and presentation.
Your wiser fellows are withholding their judgments until they have heard the the matter unto the end.