Toto

This has been discussed here before. Burridge compares the gospels to Graeco-Roman bioi, which were not exactly biographies as we understand them, as bioi were written about gods.

This doesn't answer GDon's questions.

aa5874

And Paul himself, according to an apologetic source, just needed a BRIGHT blinding light from heaven.

Paul's conversion in Acts may be possibly simulated today with an arc-welding machine without safety googles or perhaps with a lightning storm.

Acts 9.3-6 But, even in the Pauline version, the writer did not even go to Jerusalem to find out about Jesus from the apostles before him. He went the other way. He went to Arabia.

Galatians 1.15-17 The Pauline story is most incredible. He got his information about Jesus in the most unbelievable way.

mountainman

The Christian LXX is characterised by the presence of a number of "abbreviated names" in contrast to the Hebrew versions where AFAIK only the name of the Hebrew G-d is "encoded". Besides the mind opening instructions on how to read Greek, Jesus may have left instructions for the use of these abbreviated codes, especially the one referring to Joshua, which he knew he was about to share in the Greek new testament.

The hypothesis that early Christians learnt about Jesus from the Greek LXX in Greek implies that early Christians could either read Greek, or have Greek read to them by a "reader" ***AND*** that they (and/or the "Reader") knew precisely what these abbreviations stood for.

AFAIK Origen is the first to catalogue the various versions of the LXX and the Hebrew Bible in the 3rd century.

Rememberance of Jesus via the LXX in theory entails knowing which "Christianised version of the Greek LXX" was used for this task, and who was its editor (who first implemented the abbreviated names). This question appears to be unanswered and unanswerable.

mountainman

The same obviously may have applied both to non christians and christians alike, especially after Jesus became political. Non christians may have also wanted more details about Jesus, and finding none, simply invented tall stories and whopping yarns --- an expedition to the "Land of the Cannibals" for example.

The "Gnostic Gospels and Acts" etc present Jesus as docetic, and consist of wild romantic popularised and totally unbelievable fictional accounts of the post resurrection life of Jesus. The OP cannot really use any of these texts as sources, because they appear to have been purposefully authored as fictional accounts, almost like a "Homerisation" of the canon.

The passages within the new testament "Gnostic Gospels and Acts, etc" will not assist the case of an investigation of the historical details of an historical jesus. In these texts, you will only find a predominance of rhetoric directed against jesus and the apostles and the orthodox teachings. For example Jesus is depicted in one text as a malevolent child-trickster capable of killing fellow-children and neighbours, and in another text as "not leaving any footprints".

spamandham

Fair enough. I'm familiar enough with the NT to say with high confidence no such sentiment exists within it's pages. I've also read all of Justin at least a couple of times and can't recall any such sentiment. I'm afraid you are probably stuck with process of elimination based on our collective knowledge of early writers. Anyway, it might be productive to list all the writers you are interested in...perhaps these?

Doug Shaver

I'm aware of no such remark in any extant document.

You mentioned Luke and John. I agree. Luke implies that he could have written more, and John explicitly says so.

He suggests (according to those who quoted him) that there were oral traditions. I don't recall his claiming that they were disappearing.

I'm not sure how that addresses your questions.

OK. Assuming historicity, John was just stating the obvious, since it must have been common knowledge in any Christian community that they did not know everything that could have been known about Jesus. What the early Christians could have believed, perhaps, was that whatever they knew about him was all that they needed to know about him.

DCHindley

GD,

Off the top of my head, the only passages I can think of are:

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

and

2 Corinthians 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer.

In John, this seems to convey the idea of "amazing things" that Jesus did, which I think makes this knowledge legendary in nature.

I usually consider the passage in 2 Cor to be an indication that there was knowledge of a human Jesus ("Christ"), but this is not really a complaint about a lack of knowledge. It may actually be refering to perception about his death. Rather than thinking of Christ as someone who died and thus all he stood for being dead with him (the human POV), he recommends thinking of this death as an atoning sacrifice that saves all (the Spiritual POV).

DCH

dog-on

I think that the 2 Cor reference regards knowing Christ, in the spirit. I do not believe that this is a reference to knowing Christ as a person.

aa5874

The Pauline writings are about JESUS who was resurrected from the dead.

In the Pauline writings the word "Christ" is the title given to Jesus who was RAISED from the dead.

The Pauline writers either believed Jesus did exist as the Creator and equal to God, was made of a woman, was betrayed, crucified, and was RAISED from the dead or only wanted people to believe the same.

It is clear that the Pauline letters and 2 Corinthians is about the same JESUS who was RAISED from the dead.

1 Cor1.1-2
Galatians 1.1 The Pauline writings cannot be analyzed in isolation. They were not written in a vacuum. The Pauline writings are the corroborative sources for the afterlife of the RESURRECTED JESUS.

Kapyong

Gday all,

Well, here are some examples which indicate knowledge about Jesus came from scripture and/or revelation, whether personal or 2nd hand - from my notes on Earl Doherty's J:NGNM.


Firstly, some general comments from Paul -

1 Cor. 2:13 NEB
"We speak of these gifts of God in words found for us not by our human wisdom but by the spirit"

1 Cor. 14:36-37
"Did the word of God originate with you? Are you the only people to whom it came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that that I write has the Lord's authority"

2 Cor. 5:5
"God has shaped us for life immortal, and as a guarantee of this he has sent the Spirit"

1 Peter 1:12 :
"Preachers brought you the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven."

The source of their gospel, their teaching, is the Spirit - is internal personal revelation.


More specifically, how did Paul know about Jesus -

Gal. 1:16
"God chose to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the gentiles"
Jesus was revealed to Paul, IN Paul.

Rom. 16:25-6
Paul's Gospel "about Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept in silence for long ages but now revealed, and made known through prophetic writings".
Paul's knowledge about Jesus is only now derived from revelation about what the scriptures mean.

Eph 3:5
"The mystery about Christ which in former generations was not made known to the human race, is now revealed to dedicated apostles and prophets through the Spirit."
Knowledge about Jesus Christ is only now made known by revelation - not a recent historical Jesus.

Titus 1:3
"Yes it is eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised long ago, and now in his own good time he has openly declared himself in the proclamation which was entrusted to me by ordinance of God our saviour."
The writer says it just started now (i.e with Paul) with a proclamation (revelation) to Paul.


Gal. 1:11-12
"For I neither received (paralambano) [my Gospel about Jesus Christ] from man, nor was I taught it, but [I received it] through a revelation of Jesus Christ"
He received his gospel about Jesus from personal revelation.
Paul uses 'paralambano' to refer to receiving revelation.

1 Cor. 15:3-4
"For I delivered to you ... what I also received (paralambano), that Christ died for our sins, as learned from the scriptures, and that he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day, as learned from the scriptures"
(Translating "kata tas graphas" to "as learned from the scriptures".)
Paul has received this knowledge about Jesus from his personal revelation about what the scriptures really mean, probably referring to Isaiah 53, Hosea 6:2, Ps. 22:16, Zech. 12:10 and Ps. 2.

1 Cor. 11:23-26
"For I received (paralambano) from the Lord that which I passed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was delivered up, took bread, and when he had given thanks, broke it and said: 'This is my body..."
Paul's received this knowledge about Jesus by personal revelation.


Details derived from scripture (or revelation)

Eph. 2:17
The writer tells us about the coming of Jesus bringing the "good news" - but the content of the good news is a quote from Isaiah.

Hebrews
1:2 "In this final age God has spoken to us through his Son" in the present.
But all quotes of the Son are from scripture, not a single Gospel saying - e.g. Ps. 2:12 "I will proclaim thy name to my brothers", not Mark 3:35 as example of being brothers.
Quotes of OT scripture are put in Jesus' mouth with "he says...", in the present tense - e.g. 10:5-7 Christ speaks about himself by quoting Ps. 40:5-8.
5:7 derived from Ps. 116:1 and Ps. 22:24.
Scripture is consistently the source for Jesus' words and actions to this writer.

Rev.
Opens with the "revelation of Jesus Christ" - God reveals it to Jesus, who passes it to an angel who tells John.
Filled with revelation about Jesus.
1:7 is derived from Zech. 12:10
Closes with quote from Habakkuk in the mouth of Jesus.


The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent Righteous One
Mark's passion of Jesus is derived from scripture - Gen. 39-41, Est. 3, Tobit 1:18-22, Susanna, Dan. 3 and 6, Macc. 3, 2 Macc. 7, Wis. Sol. 2-5.


1 Clement
16:15-16 describing Jesus' suffering - quoting Ps. 22 and Isaiah 53, no Gospel stories.
Ch. 22 - Ps. 34 is quoted as a direct summons from Jesus.
Scripture is a source for Jesus' actions for this writer too.


Polycarp's epistle
8:1 talking of the events around Jesus - he quotes from Isaiah 53.
2:3a speaks of "the Lord in his teaching", then quotes from 1 Clement 13.
No clear knowledge of Jesus stories, except from scriptures and an early Christian writing.

Barnabas
Talks about Jesus' passion 5:2, 5:12, 13 ; but his sources are scripture - Isaiah 50 and 53 and Psalms 22 and 119.

Tertullian,
On the Flesh of Christ, Ch. 9
"As the case stood, however, it was actually the ordinary condition of His terrene flesh which made all things else about Him wonderful, as when they said, "Whence hath this man this wisdom and these mighty works?" Thus spake even they who despised His outward form. His body did not reach even to human beauty, to say nothing of heavenly glory. Had the prophets given us no information whatever concerning His ignoble appearance, His very sufferings and the very contumely He endured bespeak it all. "

That is -
even if the prophets [i.e. scriptures] had not told us he was physically ugly, we could still tell that was so from his sufferings.

Tertullian's source for Jesus appearance is the scriptures (the prophets.)

Again in Against Marcion 3, 17 :
"Let us compare with Scripture the rest of His dispensation. Whatever that poor despised body may be, because it was an object of touch and sight, it shall be my Christ, be He inglorious, be He ignoble, be He dishonoured;
for such was it announced that He should be, both in bodily condition and aspect.
Isaiah comes to our help again:
"We have announced (His way) before Him," says he; "He is like a servant, like a root in a dry ground; He hath no form nor comeliness; we saw Him, and He had neither form nor beauty; but His form was despised, marred above all men." Similarly the Father addressed the Son just before: "Inasmuch as many will be astonished at Thee, so also will Thy beauty be without glory from men,"
Isaiah is his source of this detail about Jesus.

Origen vs Celsus.
They argue about the characteristics of Jesus - as derived from Isaiah and Psalm 45 (contra Celsum VI, 75)


Thanks to Earl for this helpful list :-)


Kapyong