Freethought & Rationalism Archive

matthewthomas · 12-29-2007, 04:57 PM

Does anyone know of any mention of any other bishops of Myra, before or after? On the one hand, can we be sure that there were bishops in Myra? On the other, would we expect records of bishops from Myra to have come to us from the the 4th century?

Mt

Toto · 12-29-2007, 08:55 PM

All about Myra. It seems that Myra was a likely location for a Christian church, so there is no reason to think that there would not have been a bishop (an overseer).

xunzian · 12-29-2007, 09:04 PM

We have a record of him at the Council of Nicea. He punched Arius in the face and was defrocked for a time because of it. That is a pretty well-recorded event. Most of the knowledgeable sanit-recognizing Christians I've spoken to (n=3 out of 5) admit that most of the rest of his accomplishments are probably later additions.

Toto · 12-29-2007, 09:21 PM

The newadvent site is skeptical about the Council of Nicea story. I don't think it can be described as well recorded.

Roger Pearse · 12-30-2007, 12:50 AM

The first question is to ask in what it is recorded.

Malachi151 · 12-30-2007, 03:24 AM

Is Roger Pearse's material saying the the earliest written account of Saint Nicholas comes from the 9th century?

matthewthomas · 12-30-2007, 09:36 AM

Paddling in the deep end of the-church-is-the-source-of-all-evil conspiracy theories...
http://www.freewebs.com/christmaslie/nicolaitans.htm

Quote:

How do we know the "tradition" was fabricated?

B4. Nicholas is not described in any lists of Bishops connected to the council of Nicea. It is a patent lie to cover what WAS known about him. FACT: He was already being "venerated" as a "Saint" with a "following", by the time of the first council of Nicea. There are however "clues" about who he "really was" in history, in relationship to that "council" however. In the "legend", he is presented as an assistant to and defender of Constantine [the "christian" sun worshipper]. How did he "help Constantine"? Who instituted the SATURNALIA celebration of SOL INVICTUS, we now call CHRIST-MASS? How else? SAINT NICHOLAS!

It even has Eusebius responsible for fabricating it all. Quelle surprise.

Best wishes,
Mt

Roger Pearse · 12-31-2007, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Is Roger Pearse's material saying the the earliest written account of Saint Nicholas comes from the 9th century?

It sounds a lot like it, doesn't it. There may, of course, be stray uninformative mentions of a Nicholas Bishop of Myra before then, and these ought to be collected, if so.

Note that if this is all correct, isn't it remarkable that the first source doesn't exist in English?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

arricchio · 12-31-2007, 12:42 PM

On JSTOR I managed to locate only one article having to do with the origins of the cult of St. Nicholas:

"St. Nicholas and Artemis", Eugene Anichkof, Folklore, Vol. 5, No. 2. Jun 1894. (I have the PDF if anyone is interested).

A quick summary:

1. He knows of no "Life of St. Nicholas" earlier than the ninth century.

2. He argues that the cult of St. Nicholas derives from several attributes of the cult of Artemis-Ephesos, which itself is an amagulmation of at least two other Artemsian cults active in Anatolia. Artemis Ephesos was worshipped as sea-diety, hence Nicholas' association with the sea and with sailors.

Quote:

After all that has been said, we may, I think, draw the conclusion that the Christian cult of St. Nicholas has, as a whole, replace that of Artemis of of Ephosos. We must bear in mind that the position of Myra as a sea-station between Antioch, Alexandria, and Jaffe from one side, and Constantinople and Italy on the other was particularly favourable to to a sea-cult.

3. The city of Myra was a major sea port (Paul mentions it in Acts 27:5) The cult of St. Nicholas, having been established, spread via sea lanes among sailors and merchants to all parts of the known world including the area of France and Germany.

[Interestingly, I came across a review of a book by Charles W. Jones, Saint Nicholas of Myra, Bari, and Manhatten: Biography of a Legend (or via: amazon.co.uk) which argues that: "St. Nicholas' powers were of advantage to mariners and merchants, and the rise of his cult was coincident with the rise of trade and the bourgeoisie -in short, the most popular saint in Christendom may prove to be the least essentially religious saint of all". Sounds like Santa Claus, doesn't it?]

4. Most probably, it was the cult of St. Nicholas that gave rise to the German sea dieties, (Nik, Nikuz, Nix, Nicor), and not the other away around as some have suggested.

Quote:

If in France St. Nicholas is happens to have been a sea monster, it is not unlikely that his name was also transferrred to the sea - and water-diety of the Germans (pg. 117)

The progression of St. Nicholas from patron saint of sailors and merchants to the American Santa Claus is provided by another reviewer of Jones' book, John Coakley. Summerizing Jones' thesis, he writes:

Quote:

He [Jones] begins with the earliest stories, mostly sea stories, which appeared more than a century after the saint's supposed death in the 340s (his historical existence being anyway doubtful). Thereafter the legend displayed its most vigor from the eighth to the twelfth centuries, when the lasting image of Nicholas as "a secular bishop, a man of the world, never cloistered" (p. 44) took form and the evolving stories traveled from Asia Minor westward, like the relics themselves, which were stolen and brought to Bari in 1087. The saint's great devotees were then precisely "men of the world" such as the flamboyant pilgrim Fulk of Anjou or the fighting pope Leo IX. In the later Middle Ages such devotion lost vitality as Nicholas's cultural ubiquity made him "a recommendation for almost any course of action that ambitious authors might invoke him for" (p.226); afterward, withered by dry winds of Catholic hagiology and Protestant iconoclasm, the legend retreated to folk custom, which meshed the celebrations of Nicholas's feast (December 6) with those of the winter solstice. That development set the stage for the nineteenth- and twentieth-century American Santa Claus, whose invention Jones credits largely to Washington Irving, minimizing perhaps too readily the possibility of survivals from colonial Dutch culture. ( John Coakley, Church History, Vol. 60, No. 3. (Sep., 1991), pp. 429-430)

Might be a book worth getting hold of.

Toto · 12-31-2007, 01:19 PM

Thanks, arricchio. Amazon has some affordable copies of the Jones book (I added a link to your post), which seems to be a source for all of the webpages.

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12-29-2007, 04:57 PM	#11
matthewthomas Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Shores of the utmost west UK Posts: 49	Does anyone know of any mention of any other bishops of Myra, before or after? On the one hand, can we be sure that there were bishops in Myra? On the other, would we expect records of bishops from Myra to have come to us from the the 4th century? Mt

12-29-2007, 08:55 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	All about Myra. It seems that Myra was a likely location for a Christian church, so there is no reason to think that there would not have been a bishop (an overseer).

12-29-2007, 09:04 PM	#13
xunzian Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,691	We have a record of him at the Council of Nicea. He punched Arius in the face and was defrocked for a time because of it. That is a pretty well-recorded event. Most of the knowledgeable sanit-recognizing Christians I've spoken to (n=3 out of 5) admit that most of the rest of his accomplishments are probably later additions.

12-29-2007, 09:21 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The newadvent site is skeptical about the Council of Nicea story. I don't think it can be described as well recorded.

12-30-2007, 12:50 AM	#15
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	The first question is to ask in what it is recorded.

12-30-2007, 03:24 AM	#16
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Is Roger Pearse's material saying the the earliest written account of Saint Nicholas comes from the 9th century?

12-31-2007, 01:19 PM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Thanks, arricchio. Amazon has some affordable copies of the Jones book (I added a link to your post), which seems to be a source for all of the webpages.

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