Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 12-29-2007, 01:54 AM

I've done only some preliminary research into Saint Nicholas, but from what I have seen I suspect that he is a case of the Catholic acquisition of a pagan god into the pantheon of saints.

It seems, at least from what I can see, that we have no writings from Saint Nicholas, and every story about him is highly unlikely. For example, he has a miraculous birth, is credited with all sorts of miracles, and supposedly was so pious that he observed the days of fasting when he was an infant.

He appears to take over many roles of existing patron gods of the region from which his story emerges as well.

Does anyone have further information on this?

Toto · 12-29-2007, 10:05 AM

Saint_Nicholas and the more skeptical "St Nicholas of Myra" on the newadvent site describe what might be a historical person. From the latter

Quote:

Though he is one of the most popular saints in the Greek as well as the Latin Church, there is scarcely anything historically certain about him except that he was Bishop of Myra in the fourth century.

It is easy to see how all of the miraculous stories are legendary accretions around an early Christian leader, and there is nothing inherently improbably about there being a Christian Bishop in Anatolia in the 4th century. Unlike others whose historicity is challenged, he seems to have left a body behind, although that can be faked.

If he were a pagan god who was added to the Catholic saints, it should be easy to identify that god. Which one would that be?

Malachi151 · 12-29-2007, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Saint_Nicholas and the more skeptical "St Nicholas of Myra" on the newadvent site describe what might be a historical person. From the latter

Quote:

Though he is one of the most popular saints in the Greek as well as the Latin Church, there is scarcely anything historically certain about him except that he was Bishop of Myra in the fourth century.

It is easy to see how all of the miraculous stories are legendary accretions around an early Christian leader, and there is nothing inherently improbably about there being a Christian Bishop in Anatolia in the 4th century. Unlike others whose historicity is challenged, he seems to have left a body behind, although that can be faked.

If he were a pagan god who was added to the Catholic saints, it should be easy to identify that god. Which one would that be?

There is certainly nothing improbably about his existence, but that still doesn't give us reason to have confidence in it.

I was just curious because he is such a hyped figure and every story I have read about him is so over the top with supernatural events and absurdities.

It would be interesting to test the body and see if it is indeed from the 4th century, of course that will never happen.

I was watching in the news on Christmas day a church that claims to be hosting the authentic crown of thorns that Jesus wore, we all know how these relics work.

As to identifying the "pagan" god from which he may have been transformed, nope I don't know this info, but nor have I looked into much, and I think it would be a difficult issue to look into that would probably require a lot of original research over in Europe and reading through untranslated texts to figure out, so I doubt I ever will figure that issue out.

Several of his patron attributes, such as patron saint of sailors overlaps with several pagan gods, but but that doesn't mean that he originated from such gods. I don't know of a pagan god of gift giving, but perhaps there was one. It seems that there must have been since there were thousands of gods.

I really don't know, I'm fishing here, which is why I posted.

The implications for Christmas are interesting however. If Saint Nicholas were actually a Christianized pagan god that would be quite amusing. At the very least, however, I think we can doubt the reality of any "gift giving" figure from the 4th century as the basis of the Santa Claus legend. Even if some 4th century Bishop named Nicholas did exist, I see no reason to view any of the legends about his as anything more than fiction, and even if he did exist, that these legends would have been acquisition from existing patron gods seems likely.

Toto · 12-29-2007, 10:50 AM

All this research has been done. It was more popular in the 19th century, when the academic subject of folklore was more popular.

ReligiousTolerance on Santa

Quote:

Some religious historians and experts in folklore believe that there is no valid evidence to indicate that St. Nicholas ever existed as a human. In fact, there are quite a few indicators that his life story was simply recycled from those of Pagan gods. Many other ancient Pagan gods and goddesses were similarly Christianized in the early centuries of the Church. His legends seems to have been mainly created out of myths attributed to the Greek God Poseidon, the Roman God Neptune, and the Teutonic God Hold Nickar. "In the popular imagination [of many Russians] he became the heir of Mikoula, the god of harvest, 'who will replace God, when God becomes too old.' " 8

When the church created the persona of St. Nicholas, they adopted Poseidon's title "the Sailor." They seem to have picked up his last name from Nickar. Various temples of Poseidon became shrines of St. Nicholas. 1 "In medieval England... in tiny sea ports we find the typical little chapel built on an eminence and looking out to sea." 8 St. Nicholas also adopted some of the qualities of "The Grandmother" or Befana from Italy. She was said to have filled children's stockings with gifts. Her shrine at Bari was also converted into a shrine to St. Nicholas.

The Christian church created a fictional life history for St. Nicholas. He was given the name Hagios Nikolaos (a.k.a. St. Nicholas of Myra).

* * *

In Scandinavian countries, the ancient Pagan Yule goat has transmuted into Joulupukki - similar to the American Santa.

Wikipedia on Santa Claus and German pagan folklore

Quote:

Numerous parallels have been drawn between Santa Claus and the figure of Odin, a major god amongst the Germanic peoples prior to their Christianization. Since many of these elements are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Santa Claus.[11]

Odin was sometimes recorded, at the native Germanic holiday of Yule, as leading a great hunting party through the sky.[12] Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus's reindeer.[13]

The problem with this sort of analysis is that one can go overboard and assume that every similarity is evidence of borrowing, and this still doesn't show that there was no early Christian Bishop at the core of the legends.

Malachi151 · 12-29-2007, 11:01 AM

Agreed Toto, and if significant research has already been done then I doubt much more will come to light that what is already known on this subject. As said, testing the body could yield some help, but even that wouldn't do a whole lot. If the body is 4th century it doesn't prove that it is "Saint Nicholas". If its not 4th century it doesn't prove that there was no "Saint Nicholas", it just proves that this body isn't him.

It seems that it would help a little, but would still not be a smoking gun. It is doubtful that any such smoking gun exists, but what you posted here is more than I knew before, and I think at the very least is enough to say that the Saint Nicholas of legend, including the gift giving elements, is fabricated.

Sort of gets us to a similar place as the Jesus issue, except in this case I think it is more clear that the basis for the legend is pagan.

Thanks

Toto · 12-29-2007, 12:22 PM

Well, I just hope you are not planning on announcing to a group of 9 year olds that Santa doesn't exist, or that he's just a myth constructed from some nasty pagan gods. This site will not be responsible for the consequences.

:Cheeky:

MERRY XMAS

Roger Pearse · 12-29-2007, 02:11 PM

From all of which, can we not reasonably infer that no-one online knows, and the information online is all hearsay?

If we want a real answer, we have to start by tabulating data. This will involve *work* of course, which is why people find it easier to repeat hearsay. It would certainly be interesting to see that data base.

I would imagine that the modern figure is the product of folklore.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Minimalist · 12-29-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

there is scarcely anything historically certain about him

If they can invent a god, they can invent his office staff as well.

matthewthomas · 12-29-2007, 03:01 PM

Just another online source, I'm afraid...

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=371

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Online

his episcopate at Myra during the fourth century is really all that seems indubitable authentic. This is not for lack of material, beginning with the life attributed to the monk who died in 847 as St. Methodius, Patriarch of Constantinople. But he warns us that "Up to the present the life of this distinguished Shepard has been unknown to the majority of the faithful", and sets about enlightening their ignorance nearly five hundred years after the saint's death. This is the least unreliable of the "biographical" sources available, and a vast amount of literature, critical and expository, have grown up around them.

Roger Pearse · 12-29-2007, 03:07 PM

This suggests that we have a 'vita' from the 9th century by this Methodius as our earliest source. The step, of course, is some kind of reference to it. It must be in the Patrologia Graeca, I suppose.

I also saw a reference in the Catholic Encyclopdia to a collection of material by Metaphrastes, which is in the PG.

Also this from http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/STNICH.htm:

Quote:

[The acts of Nicholas, published about the year 912 by Metaphrastes, are extant, translated by Lipoman, Surius, &c.

Others much shorter, but imperfect, compiled by Methodius Patriarch of Constantinople, about the year 840, are published by Mombritius Falconius &c.

Another life of St. Nicholas was wrote by John, deacon of Naples, anno 860, from Methodius and others. (See Murat. Ital. Scriptor. t. i. part 2, p. 287, and Jos. Assemani, t. v. p. 417.)

See several acts of his life, published by Falconius, Archbishop of San-Severino, at Naples, in 1751, also Tillemont, t. vi. Vie de St. Nicholas, et Note 1, 2. Fleury, t. xiii. p. 446]

NB: Methodius I, Patriarch is not the same as the evangelist of the Slavs who lived a little later. CE article here http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09242a.htm:

Quote:

St. Methodius is reputed to have written many works. Of these only a few sermons and letters are extant (in Migne, P.G., C, 1272-1325). An account of the martyrdom of Denis the Areopagite by him is in Migne, P.G., IV, 669-682, two sermons on St. Nicholas in N. C. Falconius, "S. Nicolai acta primigenia" (Naples, 1751), 39-74. For other fragments and scholia, see Krumbacher, "Byzantinische Litteratur" (Munich, 2nd ed., 1897), 167.

From Copac:

Quote:

Main author: Nicholas st, bp. of Myra.
Title details: Sancti ... Nicolai acta primigenia, nuper detecta, & eruta per N.C. Falconium : ab eodem Lat. reddita: et cum recentioribus aliis s. Nicolai actis Gr.-Lat., cum suis notis edita.
Published: Neapoli 1751
Physical desc.: (fol.)
Other names: Falconi, Niccolò Carminio abp. of Santa Severina, [ed.]
Location: Bodleian Library Bookstack NN 75 Th.

and

Quote:

Main author: Falconi, Niccolò Carminio, d.1759.
Title details: Sancti confessoris pontificis et celeberrimi thaumaturgi Nicolai acta primigenia nuper detecta, & eruta ex unico & veteri codice membranaceo vaticano: per Nic. Carminium Falconium ... ab eodem Latine reddita, et cum recentioribus aliis S. Nicolai Actis Graeco-Latine, cum suis notis edita ...
Published: Neapoli : typis Josephi de Bonis ..., Anno Domini 1751.
Physical desc.: [12], 68, 144 p. ; 2o.
Notes: The text of the "Acta omnia" is in parallel Greek and Latin.
Subject: Nicholas, Saint, Bishop of Myra.
Language: Latin
(Durham)

PG 100 contains:

Quote:

S. Methodius Patriarcha Constantinopolitanus -- col. 1231
Notitia -- col. 1231
Notitia altera -- col. 1239
Cultus Methodii qpud Græcos et Latinos vitæque acta -- col. 1241
Vita Methodii auctore coævo -- col. 1243
Caput Primum -- col. 1243
Caput II -- col. 1251
Analecta ex variis -- col. 1262
Caput Primum -- col. 1262
Caput II -- col. 1263
Vitæaliquot sanctorum et homilæ scriptæ -- col. 1266
Homiliæ de Cruce et Passione Christi -- col. 1271
Oratio in Sanctam Agatham -- col. 1271
Martyrium B. Dionysii Areopagitæ -- col. 1291
Epistola ad Patriarcham Hierosolymorum -- col. 1291
Epistola contra Studitas -- col. 1294
De Iis qui Abnegarunt Fidem -- col. 1299

12-29-2007, 01:54 AM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Did "Saint Nicholas" exist? I've done only some preliminary research into Saint Nicholas, but from what I have seen I suspect that he is a case of the Catholic acquisition of a pagan god into the pantheon of saints. It seems, at least from what I can see, that we have no writings from Saint Nicholas, and every story about him is highly unlikely. For example, he has a miraculous birth, is credited with all sorts of miracles, and supposedly was so pious that he observed the days of fasting when he was an infant. He appears to take over many roles of existing patron gods of the region from which his story emerges as well. Does anyone have further information on this?

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12-29-2007, 11:01 AM	#5
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Agreed Toto, and if significant research has already been done then I doubt much more will come to light that what is already known on this subject. As said, testing the body could yield some help, but even that wouldn't do a whole lot. If the body is 4th century it doesn't prove that it is "Saint Nicholas". If its not 4th century it doesn't prove that there was no "Saint Nicholas", it just proves that this body isn't him. It seems that it would help a little, but would still not be a smoking gun. It is doubtful that any such smoking gun exists, but what you posted here is more than I knew before, and I think at the very least is enough to say that the Saint Nicholas of legend, including the gift giving elements, is fabricated. Sort of gets us to a similar place as the Jesus issue, except in this case I think it is more clear that the basis for the legend is pagan. Thanks

12-29-2007, 12:22 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Well, I just hope you are not planning on announcing to a group of 9 year olds that Santa doesn't exist, or that he's just a myth constructed from some nasty pagan gods. This site will not be responsible for the consequences. :Cheeky: MERRY XMAS

12-29-2007, 02:11 PM	#7
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	From all of which, can we not reasonably infer that no-one online knows, and the information online is all hearsay? If we want a real answer, we have to start by tabulating data. This will involve work of course, which is why people find it easier to repeat hearsay. It would certainly be interesting to see that data base. I would imagine that the modern figure is the product of folklore. All the best, Roger Pearse

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