Transient

Surely a god that created everything from nothing at all would not need a dead body to resurrect.
Hence there is a serious flaw in the fictional stories of an empty tomb etc.
Appearances would be necessary to prove a resurrection but not an empty tomb. The author(s) of these stories seem to have forgotten that their god was able to create out of nothing - after all there would be nothing left of the little grey cells that are much more important than the stupid bones lol.
All they could think of was the silly bones - dam easy to make compared to reconstructing the whole brain and memory etc.
Its so stupid its funny.

Petergdi

It depends whay you think the point of the resurrection was. If the purpose was to convince a group of first century Jews that Jesus had been resurrected, then a presently existing original body would be fatal. People talk glibly about "spiritual resurrections" but the NT has no such concept of a resurrection that does not somehow involve a transformation of all or part of the original.

You appear to think that your selfhood is not connected to the stuff of which your body is made, but that is not some sort of universal truth that everyone must reasonably believe.

Peter.

dalehileman

Surely a god that created everything from nothing at all would not need a dead body to resurrect.

While fundamentalists take it literally deeper thinkers see all sorts of symbolic meaning

..... seem to have forgotten that their god was able to create out of nothing.......

Forgive me Trans if this is slightly OT but the idea of nothingness--to say nothing of creation--entail certain logical contradictions that can only be resolved by the assumption that TOE will show serial Universes have existed forever, the intervening instant of nothingness at the end of the Big Crunch being resolved by its duration being zero, reducing any paradox to a matter of semantics

The dualistic problems of creation are dispatched by the pantheistic assertion that God is a natural phenom coming into existence at the same instant, thereby dispatching Her existence also to a mere semantic issue

- after all there would be nothing left of the little grey cells that are much more important than the stupid bones lol....... All they could think of was the silly bones - dam........

We are the grey cells in Her anatomy

Its so stupid its funny.

Trans you might consider the possibility that your intransigence betrays an underlying ambivalence. The pantheist is unlikely to attack the Deist but instead to interpret his assertions as reflections of a more profound truth

aa5874

So, what about the STORY of the transfiguration of Jesus when two LONG DEAD prophets, Moses and Elias, appeared before Peter, James and John?

What kind of resurrection was that? It would appear that the TRANSFIGURATION story show that GOD did NOT need ACTUAL dead bodies to make Moses and Elias resurrect.


Mark 9.2-4 It must be noted that Moses and Elias appeared from nowhere and from NOTHING and then DISAPPEARED leaving NOTHING.

Jesus did not need an actual dead body to appear to have resurrected based on the resurrection of Moses and Elias. Even angels can appear like humans without a human body in the Bible.

You are confusing "unversal belief" with "universal truth". There is UNIVERSAL DATA to support "universal truth" but on the other hand "universal belief" requires faith-based speculation.

Now, please explain the selfhood of the DEVIL or Gabriel the angel? What is the connection of which their bodies are made?

Tell me the whole truth, nothing but the "universal truth".

Petergdi

Not an exception. In the case of Moses: no one knows of his burial place, and Elijah was carried up. Their bodies are not to be found on earth, so they do not disprove the rule. There would be no problem with an appearance by Enoch, Moses or Elijah. There would be a problem with someone whose body was believed to be in a tomb or grave.

Peter.

aa5874

But, Gods can be here, there and everywhere and both the beginning and the end.

What rule are you talking about?

Please tell us the "UNIVERSAL TRUTH" about the actual bodies of Moses and Elias on the mountain when Jesus transfigured?

Did Moses and Elias ONLY appear REAL or did they have ACTUAL bodies at the transfiguration site?

Please FIRST PROVE that YOU have RULES about the resurrection of Moses and Elias.

Petergdi

You are getting confused. You claimed that the appearance of Moses and Elijah in the tranfiguration scene as a counterexample to my claim that the idea of resurrection in the culture that produced the NT involves a transformation of the original bodies. Whether the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration scene involved physical presence or not (I do not know) it certainly does not furnish a counterexample.

Peter.

avi

I doubt that aa is confused, but,
I AM.

I am very confused.

I am also unable to follow your argument. Sorry to be so thick.
(it is not genetic, please don't blame my ancestors)

If you don't know where Moses is buried, i.e. the disposition of his body, then, how can you write:
"Their bodies are not to be found on earth, ..."? How do you know that they have simply not yet been found? Why do you assume that the corpse remains are not still a component, at the molecular level, of the planet earth, and her surrounding atmosphere? Do you imagine, somehow, that cremation leads to loss of opportunity for resurrection?

Do you intend to write that in that circumstance where no body parts are available, post mortem, then the being is then eligible for resurrection, provided that he/she has not been cremated, but that those individuals buried in a grave, are ineligible for resurrection? If that were the case, why would anyone seek burial? Isn't the hype and propaganda about the evils of cremation, and the advantage of burial due to the religious opinion of the Jews and their descendants: the Christians and Muslims?

Can you please cite a source for your opinion on these matters concerning the rule for transformation, i.e. who is eligible, and who is ineligible, for ascent to heaven, following transfiguration and resurrection, depending upon disposition of the cadaver.

I certainly do not follow your example about Moses, since on the one hand you indicate that his burial place is unknown, and on the other, that anyone buried is ineligible for transfiguration....?

Do you mean that all those Jews who were incinerated throughout history, are ineligible to ascend to heaven, because there are no skeletal remains available?

I acknowledge being hopelessly confused by this thread....

avi

aa5874

Not at all. You are the author of your OWN confusion.




Once you ADMIT that you don't know if the appearance of Moses and Elijah involved physical presence then YOU are CONFUSED.

Now look at YOUR earlier post.

You don't know what your are talking about.

The resurrected Moses and Elias were talking to the transfigured Jesus and Peter, James and John SAW them in the STORY book called the NT.

Please state the parts of the ORIGINAL bodies of Jesus, Moses and Elias that were involved in the transformation?

It is obvious that you are confused and DON'T KNOW one single thing about the RESURRECTION of JESUS, MOSES and ELIAS.

Petergdi

I may have expressed myself badly in my echange with aa5874.

Eschatologically minded Jews in the late second temple period were fascinated by stories of bible characters who apparently did not die, but got special treatment from God. Elijah is the obvious example, but Enoch who is a very minor character in Genesis became massively important for this reason. Moses got to be in the same category probably because of the combination of his importance, and the odd story that he was buried with no human ever seeing his burial place. As the Jewish Enclyclopedia puts it "Later on, the belief became current that Moses did not die, but was taken up to heaven like Elijah".

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=830&letter=M

No, I don't do anything of the sort. But the idea that there is some sort of bodily continuity does seem to have been part of the belief in the resurrection. Paul doesn't say that we will get new bodies not related to the old ones, but that our bodies will be changed.

Peter.