Malachi151

I'd like to make this a principle thread on geographic issues related to the Gospels.

This web article briefly mentions some issues, but I think that there are supposedly many.

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/markauthor.html

I personally am unaware of most of the issues with Gospel geography, but hopefully this can get things started. From the linked page:

Casper

Not to excuse bad geography, but in places like the Levant it might have made sense for some journeys to take a Southeastern or Northeastern tack and then backtrack instead of a straight line journey, due to the riverine geography.

Again, that is just a possibility that might make such a passage seem strange.

yalla

In many cases towns, and other sites, that are named in the gospels are otherwise unknown and this has led to widespread speculation as to their positions and in some cases whether they actually ever existed or were just invented.
Nazareth is one obvious example but there are many others.
Including:
Emmaus [from "Luke"]
Capernaum
Bethany by the Jordon
Sychar
Jacob's well
Cana [I like this one...apparently 2 sites have recently been claimed to have been Cana]
Others?
cheers
yalla

judge

I'm just not sure how one would work out whether "Jacobs well" did or did not exist.

Notsri

yalla, Emmaus, Capernaum and Cana are known from other sources (e.g. Josephus). I can't comment on the others.

yalla

The Emmaus in "Luke" is within half a day's travel of Jerusalem by foot, the disciples go to it and return within the same day.
But the Emmaus in Josephus is too far away for that and so another Emmaus has been suggested,
That is the one which is unknown.
The description of Capernaum in Josephus is said to be unrelated in spelling and detail to the site now called that.
My source for that is an article by Frank Zindler. [I'll try to find it.]
I'm unaware of a Cana in Josephus or elsewhere prior to Christians "discovering' gospel sites at a later date..
[It's still cute that 2 sites have been recently "discovered".]
cheers
yalla

yalla

http://www.americanatheist.org/win96-7/T1/ozjesus.html

Here is the article by Frank Zindler "Where Jesus Never Walked".
He casts doubt on the existence of several gospel places.
cheers
yalla

Notsri

Josephus (Wars 7.217) mentions an Emmaus located approximately 7.5 miles from Jerusalem. Is this not to be identified with the evangelist's Emmaus?

I'm not sure I find Zindler's arguments too convincing. He notes for example the odd spelling kepharnokun in Josephus' Life 1.403, but never mentions the fact that additional spellings are preserved in the mss., namely karphanomun and kapharnumon -- spellings which approximate at least somewhat more closely to the NT's kapharnaoum. Steve Mason in any event has this to say:

The variant readings, in conjunction with the location indicated by the text [of Life] (N end of Lake Gennesar, near Iulias), make it almost certain that the site is Kefar-Nahum ... the Capernaum ... famous from the gospels...

It might be worth mentioning that Kefar-Nahum is known also from the rabbinic literature (which fact Zindler does not acknowledge).

A Galilean Cana is mentioned in Life 1.86, which, IIUC, has been tentatively identified by most with the Galilean Cana of John 2.

Regards,
Notsri

PS: Thanks for posting the Zindler article.

yalla

Thanks for the info Notsri,
From Wiki re Emmaus:
"Many sites have been suggested for the biblical Emmaus, but none of them has had enough evidence to make a strong case as to its exact location in Israel. Its identification is a matter of mere guesswork: it has been sought at (a) Emmaus Nicopolis (see 2 below), distant 176 stadia from Jerusalem; (b) Kuryet el- Enab (see 4 below), distant 66 stadia, on the carriage road to Jaffa; (c) Kulonieh (see 5 below), distant 36 stadia, on the same road; (d) el-Kubeibeh (see 4 below), distant 63 stadia, on the Roman road to Lydda; (e) Urtas, distant 60 stadia; and (f) Khurbet el-Khamasa, distant 86 stadia, on the Roman road to Eleutheropolis."

Seems there may be several Emmaus's.
That's the problem, its easy enough for someone to settle on one such place and say "Eureka we have found it!' but the basis for that decision[s] is often speculative or just plain hopeful.
I'm having trouble chasing down your Josephus references re Cana and Emmaus, there does not seem to be a 1.86 for Life and I can't follow your reference for Wars either. Probably my fault.

Anyway Wiki again, this time for Cana:

"There are four villages in Galilee which are candidates for historical Cana:

Kafar Kanna, Israel;
Kenet-el-Jalil, Israel;
Ain Kana, Israel; and
Qana, Lebanon........ This is not a matter on which certainty is ever likely to be achieved."

Once again the situation appears to be far from clear.

cheers
yalla

Newton's Cat

Mark is different from the other three gospels inasmuch that it (as we have it today) was constructed from an earlier text that was rearranged, altered, and added to by someone who wasn't very careful about accuracy - and was unaware of some of the subtleties of the original text. Matthew, John, & Luke took their cue from this fraudulent (deliberate) work. To understand the origins of Christianity one must perceive the fact that Mark (as we have it today) was THE textual vehicle upon which Christianity was founded - a single individual was responsible for founding the CULT that became Christianity. This individual's starting point was the non-Christian writings of someone who had Helenistic rather than Jewish leanings - writings which were highly critical of many aspects of contemporary Judaism.