GaryP

I am in a discussion on a newspaper site ( it is full of apologetics) and I posted this :

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2...slideshow.html


the discussion has devolved into whether God created evil or not.

I obviously pointed out these passages:


* I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
* Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
* Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

to which another person gave these links:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

http://www.carm.org/does-god-create-evil

any one help with the so-called context in which God is allegedly speaking here?

show_no_mercy

IMO the only "evil" in the Hebrew bible is disobeying god's commandments: sin. God can't very well disobey his own commandments, so nothing he does is "evil".

In this context, it would be "evil" if a virgin woman was raped and she didn't marry her rapist (Deut 22:28). To not follow that commandment is a sin. Most of our moral compasses pretty much say the opposite: a virgin woman should not have to marry her rapist.

Cesc

If you hope to find a passage in the bible which says that God created evil, you cant.
Likewise that he didnt create evil.
But if there's a passage somewhere that says he "created everything" then there you have it.

Chili

Have to be careful with the differene between God and Lord God in that whatever Lord God creates will always be without substance . . . such a light and darkness and peace and evil.

Whatever God creates exists in being even if that is not in the material world but will always be the essence of the material world perhaps to come. To note that the celestial light is not Lord God's creation but he formed what we know as the light of common day as substitute and therefore also created darkness . . . which is an illusion in that it has no power on its own nor does the light of common day.

Toto

On the contrary:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things".

Joshua 23:15
"Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things".

Judges 9:23
"Then God sent an evil spirit".

1 Kings 9:9
"therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil".

The early Israelites saw YHWH in control of everything - good and evil. This is the only view consistent with true monotheism.

sugarhitman

Wow! This is surprising! No the Lord does not create evil...the use of evil in the KJV can mean either evil, judgement or bad.


"Then the Lord said unto me, 'What seest you Jeremiah?' And I said, figs,the good figs, very good, and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil." Jere. 24


"For lo, I begin to bring evil (judgement) on the city which is called by My name, and should you be utterly unpunished? Ye, shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth."


...."He will plead with all flesh; he will give them which are wicked to the sword..."Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth." Jere.25


The word evil also means bad, evil, and judgement. When God says he creates evil, he is talking about causing bad things to happen to punish nations...Judgement...not that he creates immorality.



This is very surprising coming from intellectuals.

sugarhitman

Um, Deut.22:28 is not a case of rape...the Hebrew word 'Taphas' used for lay hold on her...is not a word used for rape. 'Anah' and 'Chazaq' are words used when describing rape. "They be found" means they are both guilty....Deut. 22:25-26 calls for the death penalty for a rapist.

coconino

What seems clear is that God permits and is quite relaxed about evil. We are told that He is the creator, that we must understand what He wants of us, and constantly sermonized about how Jesus's sayings are an agenda for our lives. But when evil is committed (the holocaust, Hiroshima) God is apparently powerless, or chooses to be powerless because he wants humankind to have free will. I dont understand why, with all His grasp of human capacity for evil, God would still be insisting on maintain human free will. God allowed us to kill his son apparently to save us all, but we have not in anyway changed our ways. With all our technological advances, we are socially as savage as the Hebrews who enacted a God-directed holocaust to seize Palestine as described in Leviticus. God became so desperate he chose a flood to destroy all of creation save for Noah and family and the two-by-twos. That didnt help. So God is, according to my Catholic priest, still absent whenever evil occurs, and that is apparently a good thing because it reinforces God's faith in human will.

That is one very good reason why I am an atheist, because ask as often as I have, I still never get a coherent explanation for God's absence, apparent complacency, or in fact His powerlessness over evil. A lousy "narrative" to use that ghastly, fake term.

Cesc

I dont quite follow. According to the bible, compiled as we have it, it's not that complicated. There's no difference between God (Elohim) and Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) if that's what you mean? They all refer to Yahweh, although they probably didn't to begin with.

That's not how I understood the discussion from the OP about whether "God created evil". I meant "created evil" as in he created the very concept of evil so from that point on evil was in the world, like he created the things in Genesis. Obviously Yahweh can be an evil sob, but that doesn't imply that he was the one who initially brought "evil" into the world. But that's what I meant, the bible says nothing about who initially brought evil into the world. Unless it says somewhere that "God created everything".

coconino

And of the Son it is said, "All things were made by him, and without him was nothing made that was made," Jo. i. 3. Also, "In him were all things created, in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible - All things were created by him and in him," Col. 1. 16.

That pretty well says God created everything, so evil must be part of everything. I have never heard "everything" defined as "everything apart from evil"