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Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spamandham
Why don't we start instead, with something from one of the authentic Pauline epistles?
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We're only using the "authentic" epistles? Fine by me. So, we'll eliminate every quote out of Hebrews, and the supplemental all about Hebrews, by Doherty, as well.
Let's also eliminate the following...
First Timothy
Second Timothy
Titus
Ephesians
Colossians
Second Thessalonians
...and any mention of them, by Doherty, as well.
Quote:
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1 Thessalonians 2:14for ye became imitators, brethren, of the assemblies of God that are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because such things ye suffered, even ye, from your own countrymen, as also they from the Jews, 15who did both put to death the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and did persecute us, and God they are not pleasing, and to all men [are] contrary,
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There you've got the Jews, who are obviously earthly beings, persecuting Paul's people and killing their own prophets. And, Paul has these earthly beings "put to death" Jesus, as they did their own prophets.
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Doherty:
One is what they consider to be an unmistakable allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem in verse 16, an event which happened after Paul's death.
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16 doesn't matter to the discussion of Paul's beliefs about Jesus, anyway.
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Doherty:
There are also those who question whether any such persecution of Christians took place prior to 70 (see Douglas Hare, The Theme of Jewish Persecution of Christians in the Gospel According to St. Matthew, p.30ff.), indicating that perhaps even verse 14 is part of the interpolation, by someone who had little knowledge of the conditions in Judea at the time of Paul's letter. (Pearson, below, suggests this.)
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That would make Paul's stated background a pile of crap...
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Acts 7
54And hearing these things, they were cut to the hearts, and did gnash the teeth at him; 55and being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked stedfastly to the heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56and he said, `Lo, I see the heavens having been opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.'
57And they, having cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and did rush with one accord upon him, 58and having cast him forth outside of the city, they were stoning [him] -- and the witnesses did put down their garments at the feet of a young man called Saul -- 59and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;' 60and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
Acts 8
1And Saul was assenting to his death, and there came in that day a great persecution upon the assembly in Jerusalem, all also were scattered abroad in the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles; 2and devout men carried away Stephen, and made great lamentation over him; 3and Saul was making havoc of the assembly, into every house entering, and haling men and women, was giving them up to prison; 4they then indeed, having been scattered, went abroad proclaiming good news -- the word.
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... and him, personally, a liar, concerning his treatment of Christians ...
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Philippians 3
5circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee! 6according to zeal persecuting the assembly! according to righteousness that is in law becoming blameless!
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Quote:
Galatians 1
11And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that were proclaimed by me, that it is not according to man, 12for neither did I from man receive it, nor was I taught [it], but through a revelation of Jesus Christ, 13for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God, and wasting it, 14and I was advancing in Judaism above many equals in age in mine own race, being more abundantly zealous of my fathers' deliverances, 15and when God was well pleased -- having separated me from the womb of my mother, and having called [me] through His grace -- 16to reveal His Son in me, that I might proclaim him good news among the nations, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem unto those who were apostles before me, but I went away to Arabia, and again returned to Damascus, 18then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to enquire about Peter, and remained with him fifteen days, 19and other of the apostles I did not see, except James, the brother of the Lord.
20And the things that I write to you, lo, before God -- I lie not; 21then I came to the regions of Syria and of Cilicia, 22and was unknown by face to the assemblies of Judea, that [are] in Christ, 23and only they were hearing, that `he who is persecuting us then, doth now proclaim good news -- the faith that then he was wasting;' 24and they were glorifying God in me.
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... and a liar about how Christians have been treated ...
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1 Corinthians 4
10we [are] fools because of Christ, and ye wise in Christ; we [are] ailing, and ye strong; ye glorious, and we dishonoured; 11unto the present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and wander about, 12and labour, working with [our] own hands; being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer; 13being spoken evil of, we entreat; as filth of the world we did become -- of all things an offscouring -- till now.
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Quote:
2 Corinthians 11
23ministrants of Christ are they? -- as beside myself I speak -- I more; in labours more abundantly, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths many times; 24from Jews five times forty [stripes] save one I did receive; 25thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice was I shipwrecked, a night and a day in the deep I have passed;
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... which would totally negate any point in questioning the writer's true beliefs, since we couldn't trust a word he's saying, anyway. If Paul's just an outright liar, then this discussion might as well end.
For the sake of this discussion, we have to assume he's not...and that he's actually writing down his true beliefs.
Quote:
Doherty:
The second reason scholars tend to reject this passage as not genuine to Paul is because it does not concur with what Paul elsewhere says about his fellow countrymen, whom he expects will in the end be converted to Christ. The vicious sentiments in these verses is recognized as an example of "gentile anti-Judaism" and "foreign to Paul's theology that 'all Israel will be saved'." (See Birger Pearson: "1 Thessalonians 2:13-16: A Deutero-Pauline Interpolation," Harvard Theological Review 64 [1971], p.79-94, a thorough consideration of the question.)
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Paul curses any non-Christians...
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1 Corinthians 16
21The salutation of [me] Paul with my hand; 22if any one doth not love the Lord Jesus Christ -- let him be anathema! The Lord hath come!
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...claims that Jews', clinging to Judaism, minds are hardened and their hearts are veiled...
Quote:
2 Corinthians 3
12Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless, 14but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn -- which in Christ is being made useless -- 15but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie, 16and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.
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Quote:
2 Corinthians 4
1Because of this, having this ministration, according as we did receive kindness, we do not faint, 2but did renounce for ourselves the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor deceitfully using the word of God, but by the manifestation of the truth recommending ourselves unto every conscience of men, before God; 3and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed, 4in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; 5for not ourselves do we preach, but Christ Jesus -- Lord, and ourselves your servants because of Jesus; 6because [it is] God who said, Out of darkness light [is] to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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...and curses anyone preaching different than him...
Quote:
Galatians 1
6I wonder that ye are so quickly removed from Him who did call you in the grace of Christ to another good news; 7that is not another, except there be certain who are troubling you, and wishing to pervert the good news of the Christ; 8but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathema let him be! 9as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathema let him be!
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...and those clinging to the law are cursed...
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Galatians 3
5He, therefore, who is supplying to you the Spirit, and working mighty acts among you -- by works of law or by the hearing of faith [is it]? 6according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness; 7know ye, then, that those of faith -- these are sons of Abraham, 8and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham --
9`Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham, 10for as many as are of works of law are under a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed [is] every one who is not remaining in all things that have been written in the Book of the Law -- to do them,' 11and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;' 12and the law is not by faith, but -- `The man who did them shall live in them.'
13Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,' 14that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
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...and lumps them in with dogs and evil-workers...
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Philippians 3
1As to the rest, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord; the same things to write to you to me indeed is not tiresome, and for you [is] sure; 2look to the dogs, look to the evil-workers, look to the concision;
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Quote:
Doherty:
We might also note that in Romans 11, within a passage in which he speaks of the guilt of the Jews for failing to heed the message about the Christ, Paul refers to Elijah's words in 1 Kings, about the (largely unfounded) accusation that the Jews have habitually killed the prophets sent from God. Here Paul breathes not a whisper about any responsibility on the part of the Jews for the ultimate atrocity of the killing of the Son of God himself. This would be an inconceivable silence if the 2:15-16 passage in 1 Thessalonians were genuine and the basis of the accusation true.
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Paul speeks differently, to different people, and puts down different people, depending on who he's talking to. That's proof of nothing.
And, he admits there's no proof of interpolation. It's just speculation...
Quote:
Doherty:
It has been pointed out that there are no different textual traditions of 1 Thessalonians without the disputed passage.
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Look, I don't think there's proof of a historical Jesus, and I'm happy to debate against that opinion, but I also don't think there's proof he was considered a mythical being, from the get go. Just a lot of he said, she said, with no one being able to prove anything. One interpretation vs another interpretation. Somewhat on par with proving whether or not God really exists, maybe with slightly better odds of ever finding proof, one way, or the other.
Peace
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05-22-2007, 09:23 AM
