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Old 05-21-2007, 10:29 PM   #1
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Default ...Paul believed Jesus was on earth?

Just because these threads have a memetic tendency to generate their polar opposites, I am heading this one off at the pass.

I am looking here for the strongest arguments that Paul believed in a Jesus who was on earth. (Or, as may be stated negatively, that Paul disbelieved that Jesus' activity was in some timeless or supraterrestrial sphere.)

The main request I have here is that the poster positing a piece of evidence from the letters of Paul interact with the Doherty material on the cite. There is some comment from Doherty on all the (20+) cites that are commonly adduced here.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:43 PM   #2
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The main request I have here is that the poster positing a piece of evidence from the letters of Paul interact with the Doherty material on the cite. There is some comment from Doherty on all the (20+) cites that are commonly adduced here.
It would be helpful if you posted a link.
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Old 05-21-2007, 10:46 PM   #3
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The 20 arguable references page from Doherty can get us going.
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Old 05-22-2007, 06:39 AM   #4
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I am looking here for the strongest arguments that Paul believed in a Jesus who was on earth. (Or, as may be stated negatively, that Paul disbelieved that Jesus' activity was in some timeless or supraterrestrial sphere.)
3. Romans 5:15 (Christ as man, "anthrôpos")
Quote:
For example, consider Philo's discussion of "Heavenly Man":
"There are two kinds of men. The one is Heavenly Man, the other earthly. The Heavenly Man being in the image of God has no part in corruptible substance, or in any earthly substance whatever; but the earthly man was made of germinal matter which the writer [of Genesis] calls "dust." For this reason he does not say that the Heavenly Man was created, but that he was stamped with the image of God, whereas the earthly man is a creature and not the offspring of the Creator." (From Allegorical Interpretation of the Law)

Look closely at 1 Corinthians 15:47, quoted above. Similar to Philo, Paul makes a clear distinction in nature between Adam, who is made of "earthly" material, and Christ who is made of "heavenly" material.
Quote:
Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Quote:
Romans 5:17
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
"one man"
Quote:
Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
"human nature" ... "descendant of David" ... "resurrection from the dead"
Quote:
Romans 4:24
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
"raised ... from the dead"
Quote:
Romans 6:3
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
"his death"
Quote:
Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
"who raised ... from the dead"
Quote:
Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
"who died" ... "was raised to life"
Quote:
Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
"raised him from the dead"
Quote:
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
"raised him from the dead"
Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
"crucified"
Quote:
1 Thessalonians 2:14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
"the Jews ... killed the Lord Jesus"
Quote:
1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
"came into the world"

So there's the "one man" who "came into the world" and had a "human nature", being a "descendant of David", "who died", "the Jews" "killed" him, having him "crucified". And then, "was raised to life", "from the dead".

Where is all this supposed to be taking place, if not on Earth? Where else would you find a descendant of David, who has a human nature, who came into the world, who lived, who died, by crucifixion, by the Jews, and was raised to life? Do humans live someplace else, other than Earth? Do the Jews? Can you live and die, by crucifixion, and then be raised to life again, in some timeless place?


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Old 05-22-2007, 06:51 AM   #5
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1 Timothy 6:13
In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you
Quote:
2 Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel,
Quote:
Hebrews 2: Jesus Made Like His Brothers

5It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6But there is a place where someone has testified:
"What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
7You made him a little lower than the angels;
you crowned him with glory and honor
8and put everything under his feet? In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. 12He says,
"I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises." 13And again,
"I will put my trust in him." And again he says,
"Here am I, and the children God has given me."

14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Quote:
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Peace
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:30 AM   #6
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Doherty misreads Paul by miles and one of the major reasons is that he imagines that Paul's Christ was a product based on Paul's reading of scriptures and detached philosophical speculation. But Paul makes two major references to his state of health and correlates them with the preaching of his gospel.

He writes to the Galatians:
Quote:
You know it was because of bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you atfirst; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn me or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ Gal 4:13
and if the 'ailment' does not seem psychosomatic enough, we have a confirmation in a letter to the Corinthians:

Quote:
When I came to you , brethren, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God in lofty words of wisdom. For I decided to know nothing
among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I was with you in much
fear and trembling and my speech and my message were not in lofty words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God
1 Cor 2:1-5
So, Paul started to preach in both places in a state of huge excitement which he knew rendered him in the eyes of his audience, dismissible as someone who was just plain nutcase. But Paul had a considerable insight into his condition, and he turned what surely was a handicap to his advantage. He asserted what he knew were signs of abnormal behaviour into proof of his direct communication with God (For, if we are beside ourselves, it is for God, if we are in our right mind, it is for you
2 Cor 5:5). His ability to articulate his knowledge that he does look weird must have had a startling effect on people, as it was rare that psychotics (pneumatics) had the ability to explain themselves. Hence Paul's insistence that 'interpretation' was the greatest of all spiritual skills.

Doherty does not understand the origin of the dividing line between flesh and spirit (or spiritually filled soma) and that is why he cannot imagine that both are present in Paul's view of Jesus. Paul's silence on HJ is rejection of Jesus of the flesh (to whose doings and ideas he was violently opposed before his conversion, but about whose real purpose on earth(!) he received a revelation directly from God). Paul imagined (and I believe with a good reason) that God afflicted Jesus of the flesh the same as he did Paul, and then caused him to transgress the law to show Paul that his pride in earthly wisdom and "Judaic traditions" was nought. Now, Paul knew that no man under the power of spirit is responsible for his/her actions. He/she says or does whatever the spirit tells him/her to say or do ! The spirit is God's agent, manifestation of God (later installed into the Trinity), so the person's actions which can be extremely embarrassing (later, when one is in one's right mind and realizes what one had done) are really "no sin" in God's eye. That is why Paul says that if the archontes had wisdom (i.e. gnosis, that Paul had) they would not have crucified Jesus, who really, against all appearances and conventional wisdom, was God's unique gift to his creation. Paul of course interprets his highs as coming from Jesus Christ in heaven, and lows as the coming Judgment.

But the point that Paul makes is that Jesus did transgress the letter of law and under the law he was justly executed.
Quote:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4
This passage, coupled with Gal 4:4, confirm that Jesus was born and died under the law. That I consider the strongest indicator that Paul was talking about a real human, however mystically.

Jiri
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:36 AM   #7
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The 20 arguable references page from Doherty can get us going.
I don't think there really are any strong arguments, but it can be inferred by piecing together a number of thoughts, as 3DJay has done above. I don't think this is a valid approach though.

You really need to investigate each potential indicator of humanness in context, which is what Doherty has done, rather than simply piecing sentence fragments together to arrive at the conclusion desired.
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:10 AM   #8
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This is going to be a useless exercise if people are going to argue on the basis of English translations that beg the question by reading Gospel meanings into the epistle texts. The Greek says nothing about "human nature" in Romans 1:3 and elsewhere but uses the very ambiguous and variously interpretable "kata sarka", which all of us here know has been argued to death. Similarly, Hebrews 5:7 does not say "days of his life on earth".

And if anyone is going to claim that the concept of "death" itself can only apply to human death on earth, then they know nothing about the mythicist case, let alone ancient religious mythology.

And right after he quotes my passage about Philo's "Heavenly Man" and my comments on 15:47 a poster quotes the phrase "one man" as indicative of Paul's understanding of Christ as a human man. That's about at the level of the infamous Nomad's side of the debate with me several years ago. ("I can read!")

If Peter is going to propose a topic like this, I think it is encumbent upon him to exercise some kind of control over blatant vacuity like this.

I have no intention of getting involved in this thread.

Earl Doherty
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:23 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by EarlDoherty View Post
I have no intention of getting involved in this thread.

Earl Doherty
Then why bother posting at all?:huh:

If you are in a room and you don´t like the discussion, fine. You can say "I don´t need to listen to this!" and just walk out of that room.

But this isn´t a room we all are stuck in, is it?
One has to be active and "getting involved" to make the point you´re making above, right?

All the best,
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:12 AM   #10
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This is going to be a useless exercise if people are going to argue on the basis of English translations that beg the question by reading Gospel meanings into the epistle texts.
You are right, of course. Posters such as Jay do nothing to advance the state of the discussion.

Given the necessity of attention to the Greek text in evaluating your argument, and given the general inability of the layman to use the tools of study for New Testament Greek, why is it that you have been so keen up to now on "taking it to the street" with your argument, getting it before the eyes of your average incompetent layman, and so reluctant in making efforts to take it to the door of the academy, where there are plenty of people with the knowledge and ability to analyze the argument effectively and actually advance the state of the discussion?

Quote:
If Peter is going to propose a topic like this, I think it is encumbent upon him to exercise some kind of control over blatant vacuity like this.
I have no idea what this means. I start a thread; I go to sleep; I wake up...what am I doing wrong?

Quote:
I have no intention of getting involved in this thread.
That's all well and good. Perhaps you could get involved in the original and opposite thread that I made, the one where I ask for an argument for the conclusion of the Doherty hypothesis of Paul's Jesus. You may find this exercise redundant with your extensive website, but firstly its very extensiveness is a problem (whereas a logical argument can be stated succinctly, even if many particular examples go into the support of the premises), and, secondly, at least one person before me has commented on the very pedestrian mode of thinking and argument on your website, which does not engage itself on critiquing the premises of its argument explicitly so much as attempting to illustrate the argument, in what can only be an inductive or abductive manner. So I am probably not alone in desiring a logical exposition of your argument, if you would consider such an exercise worth your time. Otherwise we will depend on secondary interpreters to present your argument, which can only be less than fully satisfying.
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